Today, our guest is Geof Brown. Geof is the newly—not too many months ago—newly appointed president and CEO of the Illinois CPA Society. Geof and I have had a few discussions in the past, really looking forward to our conversation today. So Geof, welcome to The Unique CPA.

Thanks for having me, Randy.

Yeah, this is a topic and a podcast that I’ve been wanting to do, I haven’t felt qualified to do—I’ll give a little tease to the audience before we get into it—but we’re gonna be talking about DEI today, a lot of it’s going to be based on a report that the Illinois CPA Society did last year, and just in general, we’ll get into topics. But before that, let’s learn a little bit more about you. What December of ’22 is when you took over the role? 

I started December 5th, so just over six months, six months and ten days, but who’s counting? But it’s been good. It’s been good, you know, we had the requisite transition period, but fully at the helm since early February.

All right, and then you took over for Todd Shapiro, right?

That’s correct. That’s correct. 

How long was it? 

About 24 years.

Yeah, so that was, so you’re the first new person in that position a long time.

You know, but it’s a role that I’m used to. So in my prior job, I was the first person after someone who’d been there for almost 30 years. So it’s not new to me to follow someone who has been a fixture in an organization.

Well, I think you’re well suited for it. What was that last organization?

It was the National Association of Personal Financial Advisors. So all fee only CFPs. So not the same as CPAs. But adjacent, adjacent, some of the same macro level issues, but a great community of professionals.

Alright, so I teased a little bit of a topic we’re gonna talk about today: DEI. This is a topic that has come up a little bit on the podcast before, we haven’t done a whole episode on it. And I’m guessing you and I will go on tangents because that’s part of this podcast, we go on tangents as well. But what I didn’t mention is that the society did do a report last year, the CPA Diversity report, subtitled Uncovering the Barriers to Success. So you want to give us a little background on that report?

For sure, for sure. So, you know, we’ve been doing the Mary T Washington Wylie Internship Program for the last 11 years. And so over that time, we’ve developed this community of alumni that you know, are still connected to the society, working in various facets of the profession. And we thought it was a good opportunity for us to mine that audience, to think about ways that we can enhance and refine our programming. But in the course of that, we uncovered some good information that we shared in the report. So it’s really based off of both quantitative and qualitative research with that alumni community and their experiences in and around the profession.

Okay. And then Mary T. Washington Wylie, I think this is really interesting, her background, and can you give us some information on her?

Yeah, so Mary T. Washington Wylie became the first African American female CPA in the United States in 1943. You know, that was a time when, you know, there weren’t a lot of opportunities for women. There definitely weren’t a lot of opportunities for African American women. She created a thriving firm, Washington Pittman and McKeever. It’s one of the largest Black CPA firms in the country. It’s now part of Mitchell Titus, carrying on her legacy. But you know, it’s really pointing to the fact that Chicago was a hotbed of African American CPAs throughout the better part of the 20th century.

Awesome. 1943, okay, well, we’re here celebrating the 80 year anniversary this year, then. 

That’s correct. We got to talk about her as part of the, what would have been her 100th birthday. That’s when we established the Mary T. Washington Wiley Opportunity Fund. One of her business partners, Lester McKeever, was instrumental in getting that fund online. And that’s what’s been able to underwrite a lot of the programs that we’ve done as a society in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space.

And let’s get into a little bit of this. Because I’ve noticed this, my last 16 years in this profession has been through supporting the profession through what we do, which is specialty tax, and really the last 16 years, the first 12 of that, I pretty much was mainly almost always dealing with top 400 CPA firms. And so in that arena, I’d be at conferences and and association events and State Society events and well, moreso the associations that are encompassing those top 400. And I would constantly look around I’m saying, everybody here looks like me. How is that? How is that that we don’t have, you know—and that said that level, you know?

I’ve since seen it at the smaller levels a lot more, this is my impression a lot more DEI, at the, you know, $1 the $5 to $1 to $10 million level firm, this is what my impression is, but at this larger firm level or in general, you know, how do we get someone like me, who wasn’t I am now from this new group I’ve been part of but wasn’t used to this DEI, how do I start addressing that? How do I, I mean, little things like and I think you and I talked about it even before I get confused, you said African American earlier in our discussion already. Somewhere else in the report, it says “Black,” somewhere else in the report, it says “minority,” just from a talking standpoint, how do I know what I’m supposed to say?

Yeah, you know, there’s a couple of things. And I think everybody needs to acknowledge that we’re all going to be at various points on the spectrum related to our knowledge and comfort when it comes to DEI work. So I always like to tell everyone, you know, just dive in with the understanding that it’s not going to be perfect. Most DEI work is messy, whether you’re focusing on your own education, relationships, thinking about how you can move the needle individually, or you’re doing it from a firm perspective. You should also think about how you can be open, honest, direct, and respectful when you’re, you know, trying to learn more. I think that’s the biggest way that you can invite others into this journey that you might be on.

Okay, and so let’s go back to the report. So that helps me, let me expand on that. Because I have the last four years, I’ve really got to know these, what I call modern start a firm, I don’t know what the right right terminology is. But I have met so much more diversity, so many more diverse audience crowd, you know, from whatever standpoint, in this arena that I didn’t experience—and nothing against Top 400 I love those people, I’ve had fun, it just seems to be the lack of diversity in there. And I know your report even, we’ll talk about that a little bit. But I’m hopeful from a standpoint that see the younger group, at least this is what I’m seeing right now this younger, more modern startup firm group has more diversity, a lot more inclusion, and the equity part, I assume, but I can see the diversity, I can see the inclusion part and just the audience that I’m hanging out. So I don’t know if you see a difference between large firms or smaller firms at all?

Yeah, I mean, I think there’s definitely a difference. You know, the larger the firm, potentially, the more resources you have to devote to DEI work, but then you also probably have more human resources that you’re dealing with. So it looks like there isn’t as much representation, you know, on a percentage basis. We are moving the needle. albeit incrementally. But one of the things that I noticed back in my old financial planning days was that these upstart firms were actually filling themselves with the mindset of, we are going to be diverse, we are going to be more equitable, we are going to be a more inclusive place, but they were staffing with people who had experiences in larger enterprises. So I think, you know, looking at accounting firms, you know, you’re probably staffing up with people that worked big for or smaller, and they’re taking those experiences and they’re applying them to these new workplaces.

Yep, I can see that. Right when you said that, one individual that I’m great friends with love her, she does an awesome job, in fact, she’s going to be on a webinar that I’m hosting a week from tomorrow, Al-Nesha Jones. She came from the Big Four. She was on the partner track there, wasn’t sure it was for her, had young kids, decided that wasn’t the path she wanted in life. And so what she did is she went out to work in industry for a while, realized that that wasn’t it either. And then almost, I’ve said this, I think on the podcast before it became an “accidental” firm owner. It wasn’t really the plan, but she—and I can’t talk about this enough. She has such an amazing story. She’s built this firm, that the employees are first that you know, sets boundaries with clients, but that also, everybody that works with her is a working mother.

Oh, really!

Everybody that works there. And she’s been so successful. She was just named, you know, whatever the list that recently came out 50 Most Powerful Women in accounting, and her story is great. So she had that experience you talked about, you know, they are coming from the big four and then went out and started her own and so maybe that’s why I’m seeing it more. It’s like okay, they have this experience. They want to do things different. They have their own ideas and boom. You know, I’ve had many people have that same trajectory.

Yeah, I mean, it can be incredibly daunting. So I’ve spent the last six months, you know, meeting with firm managing partners, members, and that’s a consistent story that I’ve heard, you know, I was a member of an underrepresented population, I am a member of an underrepresented population, I worked in a larger enterprise, I saw two people that looked like me or three people that looked like me, we became spokespersons for everyone that was from a diverse background, we were in charge of doing all the diversity recruiting. And that can become incredibly daunting and become a barrier to retain those individuals in public accounting. 

Yep. Well, let’s dig into the report then. Because, what are the like the insights that stand out to you? Or what are the things that you see that stood out, that was like, okay, there’s a big gap here, here’s what we need to address or even the positives. So why don’t you go into, you know, I, you can talk for the next 20 minutes, if you want on the report, and just give us all the insights that you’ve learned from it.

Yeah, I mean, there were three top line takeaways that jumped out at me. And, you know, granted, this was released before I was hired. So I’m, you know, looking at it from afar, and I’ve become acquainted with it over the last six months. But you know, really, that first one of the lack of DEI being perceived as a barrier. So, you know, to me, that points to an overall issue with representation. You know, if I enter a firm, and I don’t see anyone that looks like me, I’m automatically going to be on edge. 

Mmm hmm.

You know, especially if you’re dealing with a situation where everybody went to, you know, one of the big name accounting schools, or, you know, they’re from similar towns at similar experiences, that can just exasperate that feeling of being, you know, one in a sea of many. You know, the fact that our alumni community felt handicapped by their backgrounds, you know, to me, that points to a lack of inclusivity. You know, thinking about our issues with acquiring new talent into the profession, you know, I think we’re mixing kids that go to the the top tier schools with, you know, some of those second and third tier schools, and you know, those experiences can be very different, you know? You may not have the same academic rigor in your undergraduate and graduate studies; you may not be treated the same when you think about working with management that, you know, also went to one of those schools. So, you know, feeling handicapped by that background, you know, can be something that individuals look at as potentially holding them back and, you know, delaying their development as professionals. 

And then I think the third thing that stood out to us most was this belief that they’re receiving inadequate feedback and development, you know, the system in public accounting is really geared towards focusing on the highest performers, and those with the perceived most potential to move to higher levels. And if you don’t get into one of those seats, then you probably won’t get the support and the development that you need to really grow as a professional. But on this one, I think there’s something a little bit deeper, you know, so we asked a couple of questions. And, you know, this is no knock on, you know, the older white gentleman in the room. But you know, not coming at the kind of that supervisory role from a place where you feel comfortable, you feel empowered, to give the good feedback, give the right feedback, give developmental feedback, to those resources that report to you that are coming from diverse backgrounds, you know? I think a lot of it is dealing with a lack of comfort. Fear that the feedback may be taken the wrong way, you know, not having that cultural competency to be able to deliver it in a manner that’s going to be effective. But all of those are solvable. No one should feel like they’re not getting the right level of feedback and development in the workplace. 

Yep. I think that would be extremely important. And if there’s this uncomfort level, because of not knowing how to—you feel uncomfortable, if they—are you the one that can help with the DI and then now how do I get feedback? I don’t know. Yeah, the whole thing. But so are you working on like putting programs in place or training, or what’s going to be the result of this report? What’s the next steps? 

Yeah, so we’re actually working right now. And this is just kind of a behind the scenes glimpse into what we’re working on. We’re working on kind of, we’re calling it Mary T. 2.0 at this point. It’s probably about six to eight months, maybe longer away from being brought online. But, you know, we’re really utilizing some of the learnings from the report to come up with some tailored solutions from our alumni community and other individuals from underrepresented populations. So we want to make sure that we’re providing them with superior mentorship opportunities, access to professional coaching, maybe access to some of the skills development that they may have been lacking or missing because they potentially didn’t have that same rigorous program of training before they entered the profession. So things like data analytics, something as little as Excel training. 

You know, I was talking with a partner at a big four firm, and he had, you know, two individuals, one went to a top tier school, one went to a smaller program. And you know, the one thing he said about the individual from the smaller program was that developmentally, they just weren’t at the same level. And the one thing that he cited was their Excel usage. And that’s something that’s very, very solvable. So to the extent that it’s possible for us to be able to provide those opportunities and those resources for these individuals, we want to make sure that we’re doing it.

Okay. And I’m just looking at some of the statistics, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do it a really bad segue here, because I’m just gonna go back into these statistics we’re talking about. But the lack of diversity in the profession—I was just looking at the census, US census, the US population 12.4% Black from the 2020 census, the US CPA population, for the Black community? 2%. I mean, that’s huge, huge. There’s obviously an issue there when we have that much of a gap between what the population is—and same thing with the, let’s see, the Hispanic and Latino, 18.7%; for CPAs, just 5%. I mean, those are the two that stand out for me, for sure.

And you know, it’s interesting, when you think about the fact that, you know, the CPA profession has been focusing on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion far longer than some of the other professions—definitely longer than financial planning, that’s for sure. So it was very surprising to me to see what the numbers really are relative to the population. And so it says that, you know, maybe we need to pull back a little bit, think about what we’re doing, and maybe try some things that, you know, may be a little different, may be a little unconventional, I think what we’re proposing with Mary T. 2.0, potentially, is one of those things, you know, getting more personalized. Yes, it’s a heavier lift. But I think that’s the type of individual attention that could potentially move the needle. And when you couple that with our overall issues from a talent perspective, we have to do that. 

Oh yeah. 

individuals from diverse populations are not going to solve everything that we’re dealing with from a talent shortage.

Okay, and then, and then the next—I like statistics. So I’m reading the report now. And these are actually places I highlight on the report reports. Great, and people can get the report on the website, I assume?

That’s correct. That’s correct. www.icpas.org.

Oh, you said it right. Not I-Pacs? Wait, no, it wouldn’t be that.

It does sound like a small illness.

It does not roll off the tongue. AICPA seems to, I don’t know why Ic-Pac doesn’t. There is no, I don’t say Act-Pa or whatever the AICPA would be. So all right. We’ll stick with that. 

But the one positive I think I’ve taken out here, and I think I’m reading this right, at least it looks like—eh, not that much, but the accounting graduates at least, seem to be trending up a little bit in those?

You know, I think so. We’re moving in the right direction. The thing that we have to remember is that, you know, this was 2022, six months ago, a little longer than that. It’s probably about this time last year when we started thinking about the research. But yeah, trending in the right direction. We still need to do more. You know, that is always the message that we’re delivering is yes, but we need to do more.

Yeah. And then the other thing is, when we’re looking at statistics, it’s actually as we go in the profession, it’s probably not trending that way, because 59% of graduates are white going into the profession and 82% of partners are. So you know, there’s that still trending towards, I don’t know if the word’s favoritism, but that’s just, or who sticks around, or they, like we’ve talked about, people aren’t sticking around because they are not feeling that they are adequately coached, or judged, or comfort level. And assume that’s another area that you’re looking to address with the whole Mary T. 2.0.

That’s one of the things that I’m most interested in is you know, what is it that sets when you have like five young professionals, you know, moderately similar backgrounds meaning educationally, socioeconomic, things of that nature, they get into the profession working in very similar firm settings, you know, what is it that sets one up for success versus another and gets one on the track to becoming a partner entering leadership versus someone who’s you know, 1, 2, 3 and done, and bounces out? 

So, really trying to uncover you know, the disparity between those experiences—was it you know, I had a great manager, I had great opportunities I felt more comfortable, or I’m just really thick skinned, I stuck it out because I felt like I had to write because I didn’t want to do a disservice to those became the came before me. The latter is admirable. But no one should have to put themselves through an experience like that.

No. Let’s talk about that. Because I find that pretty interesting what you just said, because all right, I’m just gonna stick it out, I’m just going to power through it, I’m just going to, or I personally want to do everything I can to be the change. The problem with that is sometimes that individual, and there’s many individuals, gets a lot of pressure put on them, and our profession already starts with a lot of pressure. It’s just that’s, I think we can change that. But you and I talked before, and I think, you know, that’s a big, big push of me is just talking about mental health and our profession about ways we can, you know, avoid burnout. And I think that based on what you just said, that could be a pressure that just adds on to someone’s else’s tax season pressure and cause more mental health or burnout type issues. Is that something you think you’ve seen? Or is that something that, that ICPAS—did I say it right?—is going to address as well?

You know, I think that through some of the work that we’re attempting to do, I think we’ll be touching on that. You know, top line, you’re right, the system was never designed to be supportive of one’s mental health, which is unfortunate. You know, I think the pandemic kind of flipped that script a little bit. But what we need to do collectively as a profession is not fall back into our old tendencies. You know, in some of the other conversations we’re having, you know, I think, you know, people are looking for a little bit more flexibility, a little bit more space and grace. And, you know, when you think about this population, and the issues that they’re dealing with in the profession, you know, it’s incredibly daunting to be, you know, that lone island in a sea of sameness. If I’m looking around, and I’m one of a few, or only the one, you know, it can be incredibly isolating.

You know, when you’re feeling alone, but you still have to, like, go through the motions of getting your work done, it can really raise some serious mental health concerns, you know? When you couple that with the demanding nature of the work, the work is demanding, you know, no one’s gonna lie, no one should get into public accounting, and not want to like, work hard. We’re not trying to debate that, but, you know, we can do our people a better service by being cognizant of the effect that it could have on their mental health or psychological safety, and make sure that they have the resources they need to deal with those issues before they become a problem. 

So access to employee assistance programs, you know, good training for people managers to be able to identify the signs of burnout and, you know, deploy people in other fashions to support that, you know—not saying that people shouldn’t work hard, but we need to be paying attention to their overall mental health. Because at the end of the day, you know, we’re in a business that what’s our greatest asset?

People.

It’s our people. If they can’t show up, work hard, be good contributors and bring a lot of value to our clients, then they’re not the asset that we need. 

Yep. I think that’s an issue that needs to be addressed a lot in our profession. I’m a huge proponent of corporate culture, I think that’s the most important thing. It is just treating people right, treating people fairly, making people feel all important, included in the team, all working together, but diverse, not even from what we’re talking about, but just diverse from in general. 

I mean, there’s no way my business, or our business, would be successful if everybody was me, because it’s just it wouldn’t happen. We’d never get any work done. I mean, there’d be no work done. And so we need people that, you know, have all these different personalities on top of everything. 

Absolutely.

Yeah, the diversity obviously, is like we’re talking about, but overall, I mean, from a diversity standpoint, sometimes I think people look at, and this could be an issue, but I think, oh, I’m gonna hire that person because, I mean, we have fun together, and we’re so similar. And that can’t be part of the issue, because that is not going to help your firm overall. I don’t know, if from overall diversity up and above, you know, like, we talked about the Asian community and the Latin community and the Black community of just overall diversity as well. Is that a bigger picture item that needs to be addressed?

No, I think so. I think so. I mean, when you think about the inclusive actions towards employees, you know, that we can take, that’re really going to reduce that sense of exclusion, and they can potentially diminish a sense of belonging. So when people don’t feel like they belong, they’re not going to work hard. So when an employee feels like they can be their authentic professional self—notice I say authentic professional self? Yeah, you know, because nobody wants Weekend Geof to show up at the Illinois CPA Society.

So I’ll argue with that, though, in a minute. So you’d say it, but I’ll tell you—maybe I’m not arguing with you. But I’ll tell you what I think.

You know, we want them to have a high degree of workplace satisfaction. We want them to find meaning in their work. And when people are satisfied, and they find meaning, they’re less likely to be vulnerable to conversations about going somewhere else. 

Yep. Yep. 

You know, and I think that that’s really the defining factor. It’s like that people-first culture, embracing real diversity and understanding, you know, the benefits that come along with that. You know, we’re all trying to create these high performing organizations, and the best way to do that is to make sure that people feel included, appreciated and valued for what they bring to the table. And that’s, I think, a cornerstone of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.

Yep. No, you said it well, and here’s my, I’m arguing, because we may be saying the same thing, but I want Weekend Geof to be part of this organization, because Weekend Geof’s probably a lot of fun. And I want to—and I’m going to ask you in a minute about Weekend Geof, because I want to know what your outside of work life is. Because I think if you do that, if everybody gets along from a standpoint that you find—I love basketball, I love playing basketball, though I can’t anymore, stupid knees. But I like this, I love hiking, I love that. And that if I am allowed to share who I am at work, I think that just solidifies our relationships at work. And if we are working together, because we love each other, because we have such fun together, because we know our outside of work passions, I really think that energizes the office more. 

I agree with you completely on that front. I think about the fact you know, I’m not a young guy. But early on in my career, I didn’t feel that I could do that, you know, I felt like I had to come to the office, I had to conform, I had to be a part of the machine. And you know, that was how I was going to contribute. That was how I was going to advance. Looking back on that, that wasn’t a service to the organizations that I’ve worked for. It definitely wasn’t a service to me. And it wasn’t a service to those that are part of the weekend life. 

I’m just beginning, you know, that compartmentalization that sometimes individuals feel like they have to do ends up contributing, again to some of those mental health challenges, because you’re not able to fully talk about all of the experiences that you’re involved in, positively or negatively, and so you end up just being isolated. And, you know, I feel like the Surgeon General has just been talking about, you know, the sense of loneliness that, you know, Americans are feeling and how that’s like the next greatest public health crisis. So we need to do something to address that. 

Alright, well I think that was awesome, you know, building in the mental health with the DEI with the Weekend Geof, hand in hand, which we’ll find out more about in a second. But before we do that, why don’t you give us a kind of wrap this up, kind of give us your your goals, your whatever the learning points, you want us to get out of what we talked about today? 

Yeah, yeah, no, thanks, Randy. You know, I think there’s a couple of things. One, you know, as a profession, we need to identify the actual ways that we can promote inclusion in the profession that goes beyond some of the elements of diversity you can only see. So we’ve been focusing a lot on race and ethnicity, we need to broaden that perspective a little bit. Just because, you know, we may be leaving some things on the table and leaving people behind. So that’s one piece. 

You know, when you think about this profession, you know, I talked about it a little bit. Our people are really the backbone of all these organizations. And so we need to be cognizant of the benefits they bring to the table, beyond the transactional nature of any work that they do for us. And we really do have a great opportunity to reframe the model and so we just need to take advantage of it and really have an intentional conversation about what the future of the profession is going to look like, from a Diversity standpoint, an Equity standpoint, and an Inclusiveness standpoint. 

Perfect. I think that was a great wrap. Now. The biggest question is, I want to hear about weekend Geof, what are your passions? What do you enjoy doing when you’re not running the, how many thousands of CPAs that are hanging out in Illinois? What are your passions outside of work? 

You know, when I’m not being president to the Illinois CPA society, I’m, I’m an avid runner, so I’m training for my 17th marathon right now.

Wow!

You know, I do a lot of cooking, travel, some boating. So last night, we were actually out on Lake Michigan for the fireworks. You know, that’s one of the best things about summer in Chicago is just being out on a boat on a Wednesday night with friends and enjoying the views of the city and we always have great fireworks display every Wednesday and Saturday. So I just like being outside and spending time with my family.

Nice. Nice. That’s awesome. And then if anybody wants to find out more about the Illinois CPA Society, or Is-Pac, or however we said it, we’re gonna go with Illinois CPA Society, or you or this report, where would they reach out?

They can contact our office, or they can visit our website. It’s www.icpas.org.

All right, perfect. Well, Geof, this was a lot of fun. I appreciate you coming on today and educating me on DEI.

Thanks for having me, Randy.