A Modern Firm for Modern Startups

Today, our guest is Curt Mastio. Curt is the founder of I guess aptly named, Founder’s CPA, which he founded—that’s a lot of founds in one sentence—in 2017. He is currently the managing partner of that firm. The firm and him personally, their expertise lies in SAAS, blockchain, crypto, fintech Industries. His efforts of both leadership and community involvement were recognized when he was awarded the Illinois CPA Society’s “Outstanding Young Professional Leadership Award” in 2020. Lots of other things I can say about Curt, but we’ll talk about it on the show. Curt, welcome to The Unique CPA.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. 

And you were very gracious—we had to reschedule once because I don’t remember what I was doing, but I think I was maybe heading to Seattle or something like that. We were just talking before we got on the show, and it’s kind of an interesting dynamic going with me today. This is the second episode I’m recording, and the first episode that I recorded today has a similar kind of career path that you did. And so I thought we’d kind of talk about that a little bit. But before we get into that, tell me more about this award you got from the Illinois CPA Society. What was that about?

Yeah. So It’s a young professionals leadership award, for both kind of leadership in the accounting industry, and outside of the accounting industry and kind of like community involvement and that sort of thing. So I was lucky enough to be selected and got to speak in front of the group. And it was just a really cool experience.

And I think one of those community developments is on your shirt right now. What’s that name you’re wearing?

Yeah. That is Beat the Streets Wrestling. It’s a not-for-profit in the city of Chicago, and I was one of the founding members of their young professionals board. I’m still involved, and on the board today still, just not in the same capacity, but it’s a great organization. So it’s something I like to give back and contribute to.

And it’s a wrestling organization—is that what you said?

That’s kind of the focal point, but it’s more than just that. I mean, it focuses on helping kids from disenfranchised backgrounds really kind of have a safe place to grow and learn. And through the sport of wrestling, like, that it can happen, like, as a conduit, but not all about wrestling. Like, there’s enrichment programs. There’s mentorship. There’s all sorts of things that the not-for-profit does to help kids who just need a little bit extra help, honestly.

Okay. And now I have to ask, do you have a background in wrestling?

Yeah. It was a big sport of mine growing up. So something, like, that I’m passionate about, and there was a way to give back on something that, again, I care about. So it was just kind of a natural fit after I got introduced.

Oh, that’s pretty cool. We have a little bit of a wrestling history in my extended family as well, and it’s funny. Yesterday, I was in an Uber in Little Rock, Arkansas, and the Uber driver that picked me up was a high school national champ wrestler.

Wow.

You know, but he was at 98 pounds is what he weighed, and the minimum weight was for college at the time was, I don’t even remember, don’t know what the minimum weight was, but he was too light for college. He said he got all these Division I scholarship offers, but he was too light, and he couldn’t, they were all predicated on him putting on the weight and he couldn’t put on the weight. So he ended up joining the Army which apparently just paid him to go around and wrestle, which I never knew that was such a thing. 

So as we often do on this show, we’ve gone on a tangent. But that’s one of the requirements is that we have a good time. So now let’s get back to the regularly scheduled program. and let’s talk about Founder’s CPAs. But before that, let’s just talk about your history because I think the story we’re going to want to talk about today is you know, the things you’ve learned starting a firm, growing a firm, managing a firm, but setting the stage of where you came from, I think, makes a difference. So how long were you in Big Four, and what was your capacity there?

Yeah. Not too long, quite honestly, but it’s a little bit of a unique story, I guess. So I kind of took a little bit of a different path, like post-college, in that I finished a semester early and then did an internship with one of the Big Four, for would have normally been kind of like what’s a normal second semester. So kind of during the wintertime, I was lucky enough to do that internship and then also get a really good opportunity to extend that internship, which actually happened twice.

And I got to travel as well as an intern, like, and was flying back and forth between Chicago and Houston on a big project. So might have one of the longer, like, single standing internships at at Big Four, but then went back and then finished up school after that. So, yeah, I guess, nice experience there. And then the service line I was specifically in was the forensics group. So think like, you know, financial fraud, corruption, investigative type work. My focus was mostly on, like, Foreign Corrupt Practices Act at the time. So basically the complete opposite of what I do now other than spreadsheets for the most part.

Alright. And then so this was an internship, and then after graduation, you did not go into public accounting then?

No, I did. I went and worked with them full time, for about a year and a half, I think is right. I forget the exact timeline quite honestly. But wasn’t there very long, and then after that, and it kind of took the next steps in my career, but know, had a good experience there. I learned a lot and also learned, like, you know, what it is that I wanted. 

Yeah. So were you one of the, you know, I’m assuming everybody comes in out of college, you’re putting in a lot of time and a lot of hours. Is that the way it was? 

Yeah, it was—it was a lot of hours. They were, like, stressful times, and that sort of thing. Like, there are certainly people who had it worse than me, just with the projects I was on and such, but the hours, like, didn’t bother me as much. I mean, yeah, they weren’t great, but, I just realized, like, the bigger type company environment really isn’t for me and, like, my personality type and such. So that was kind of like the reason why I transitioned out rather quickly.

Okay. And I think we’ll expand on that in a second, but then just to kind of continue set the stage, you did not go straight into founding your firm. You then went into industry, after the year and a half or—oh, we’re not sure of this. So there’s an interesting path here.

Yeah. It’s a yes and no kind of question. So my soft landing, post Big Four was a good friend of mine that I grew up with, had started a company, or started it up while he was actually in college. Now I’d gotten my CPA, like, after, like, during my, graduate year. So before I even started working, the joke I kind of shared with everybody is as soon as you become a CPA, everybody starts calling you asking you tax questions and that sort of stuff. So, you know, it’s a good friend. Like, you call me, say, like, I don’t know what I’m doing with this stuff, like, can you help out and Like, my answer is like, hey, yeah, I’m a CPA, but I don’t do any of that stuff. I don’t know any of that stuff. 

But I, you know, kind of was interested in it, and I was willing to help out and kind of did some moonlighting, supporting that business. And they had had, like, a really big growth year. So when I was ready to leave public accounting, they kind of had, like, an opportunity to do, like, a kind of an operational and, like, kind of fractional CFO role, which sounds funny to say because I didn’t know what I was doing at the time, but, they had enough to kind of pay me to just really keep the lights on. And so I did that for, I want to say, like, a year and a half or so, but kind of the agreement was that in parallel to doing that, I would able to kind of, like, start taking on other clients. But I at least had kind of enough to feed myself and, like, keep the lights on in my condo at the time.

Alright. So okay. That’s an interesting story. I just, while you were talking, I just thought, you know what? I’ve been doing a lot of these interviews lately where we’re talking, you know, to steal the name of your firm, I guess, the founder, but we’ve been talking to the founder of a firm and going through their story. I think we’re going to title these episodes, “The Founders Series.” Not stealing your name, but this is, I think, what we’re going to—this is my idea that just came to me right now.

Permission granted.

Alright. Thank you. I appreciate it. I’m not going to get sued or anything. I appreciate that. And so you actually talked about this at, I think it was the Illinois CPA Society annual conference, where you shared your experience of starting and operating the firm. I think, let’s kind of talk about that today, but let’s talk about, I mean, did you have a business plan in place, or is it just like I’m going to start? I mean, why don’t you give us that whole Founder’s story and what you went through?

Yeah. No business plan. Never had one. Still don’t have one to date. I also joke around, like, a lot of people ask the question, they go, did you know you’re going to be an entrepreneur from day one and, like, start an accounting firm? And if you had asked me that in college, I said, no. Like, I never took an entrepreneurship class or anything like that. It was just never really on my radar. So it kind of just happened when I realized like, I had to get experience in public counting, realized, like, that there are parts of that that weren’t for me. The things that I did want were things I couldn’t get if I was working for someone else. And I enjoy building, and, like, kind of the higher purpose, I guess. And so that I wasn’t going to get that, you know, really working for anyone else.

Alright. And so when you started then, which sounded like a kind of almost a gradual start, doing a few things, getting some clients, one of the things that you and I talked about before, and one of the things that I’m very passionate about, is building a niche practice. So you have a niche practice. There’s three different things. But inside that too, one of your niches that you call out is working with startups, right?

Mmm hmm. 

And so, was this the plan from the start, or did you just kind of fall into that, but now this is the plan? Give us the whole nicching and and how that came about and the importance, maybe? Let’s just expand on niching in general.

Yeah. I’d say that’s one of the few things that from the start, like, I, haven’t wavered from or hasn’t changed a whole lot. I knew I wanted to work with startup-type companies just because it kind of fits my personality of, like, liking to build things, and then helping out companies that aren’t dealing with, like, an existing infrastructure and, like, hurdles that they have to jump over. And you get to be a small part of kind of, like, helping that growth and seeing, the tangible value that you’re adding. So, yeah, that was always kind of the approach from day one really just because of a kind of a personal passion and interest of mine.

And for a while I was actually looking at, like, being in an internal role at a startup or something or, like, starting a startup company, but I realized, like, I can’t code. I can’t, like, sell, I can’t market. So what am I going to do? Gotta be accounting.

Well, all you had to do is wait another ten years, or five years, or six years, and then you got AI that could start coding this stuff for you.

Yeah!

Alright. So let’s dig deeper into the niche, though. Specifically right now, let’s talk blockchain and crypto, because that’s a topic that everybody wants to understand, and nobody, I think, does understand.

Yeah.

But let’s talk, from the whole accounting and tax end of things, or or wherever you think is the most interesting. Maybe it’s how you just deal with these clients? The client base is different. What are the uniquenesses of dealing with that industry?

Yeah. I’d say the biggest “unique” is you’re operating without a set of rules. At least an understandable set of rules. Because it is such a unique space and, innovation happens so quickly that, you know, if you look at the IRS and the tax code, right? There’s a lot of things that blockchain and startup companies that are blockchain and crypto companies are doing that don’t fit, like, within an area of the code. They kind of really fall, like, right in the middle of certain things, or they don’t exist altogether. Same thing on the financial reporting side—is their GAAP guidance for this particular transaction? And oftentimes the answer is no.

So that’s one of, like, the most unique things. And, I think, for a lot of people, they’d find that, like, frustrating and and hate it, but I kind of enjoy the challenge of that, and helping try to navigate as best we can.

Alright. So maybe let’s dig into some specifics, because it is not—like you said—the IRS code doesn’t address it, you know, the GAAP rules may not be there. You know, so you have to use your best judgment. And so what are some of the things that are—you’re having to make these good judgments on, and how do you base it on? What guidance are you finding? Is it other parts of the tax code? How do you get into that?

Yeah. I guess, like, the best way to—or a simple example—maybe not so simple because nothing is simple in that space, but I think of, like, equity-based compensation. So issuing incentive stock options or non-qualified stock options, restricted stock awards, etcetera. Crypto companies have started to do the same if they have their own native, blockchain asset, right? So you go to work for a crypto company and they have their own token, right? They may offer compensation in the form of that token. And the regulatory battle that’s happening in D.C. right now is like, you know, our cryptocurrencies are security or not, right? And we know for tax purposes that, you know, equity compensation falls under certain rules. Whereas in this case, token compensation isn’t equity, but it looks and behaves a lot like equity. So for the most part, each read the same, but then there’s just some weird, like, nuances and differences that, like, aren’t factored into the existing code. Like, Vesting is common, right, with equity compensation, but what about, vesting and, like, lockup periods and that sort of thing? Or what if it’s locked up and the person never claims it? There’s just a number of different things that quite honestly, like, we’re still hoping and waiting for answers on. 

But to answer your question around, like, how do you navigate that, you kind of have to look at what it looks most like. Right? And then kind of use, skepticism and say, okay. If I’m arguing otherwise, like, what are the gaps in this treatment, or the holes in this treatment, that need to be considered? And when you don’t, unfortunately, have, like, definitive guidance to go off of and you’re working with clients who are trying to like, solve those problems, you have to just disclose, like, hey, here’s the issues at hand, here’s what, you know, it looks most like. We’ve gotta make a judgment call. Here’s what your risks and downsides are in that scenario.

Can you—and I just was thinking about this—can you actually do an audited financial statement for somebody in this? Is there enough guidance to be able to follow things?

I think, like, Coinbase and some others might be audited. So it’s happening, already, but I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of those conversations.

Oh, I bet.

Because we do have clients that are working towards, like, being audited, right, in their new crypto space. And they also have, like, regulatory requirements that require audited financials, etc. And to answer your question, like, I kind of say the same thing as it is on the tax side, like, if you don’t have definitive guidance, right, you need to work with the audit, whoever your auditor is, and understand, like, what they’re comfortable with signing off on and, like, what needs to be disclosed and that sort of thing. But it’s similar, but a different set of problems on the financial reporting side, that we just don’t have the frameworks that we need, and the guidance that we need to be able to do things in a compliant way, because what is compliant, in this space?

Yeah. I was helping my son with this tax return this year and—oh, what was that? There’s a company out there called, oh, my mind’s blank, but supposedly, you can upload, like, your Excel sheets that you can get from Coinbase, and they’re going to look at all the transactions, and spit out a report of gain or loss on that. And I couldn’t figure out how to work it.

I mean, so that’s really good marketing by that company, right, because I’m sure on their site, it says, yeah, just plug everything in, connect your wallets, and then you’re good to go. Like, you’ve got your tax reports, but it’s the same concept as, like, QuickBooks Online, right? You can set everything up, but if you don’t know what you’re doing with the software, you don’t know how to make the software do what you want it to do, or what it needs to do, the results you’re going to get are not accurate. We see that all the time on the crypto tax side, like, the hardest part is just getting the data in there and manipulating it. Like, then the software can figure out the reports and calculate your gains and losses and all that.

Right. And I know IRS has come out with more guidance on it. It just doesn’t seem like it’s that in-depth yet. I’m assuming in the next few years, they’re going to be requiring a lot more reporting from these crypto companies, at least from the investment side of things.

Yeah. I mean, IRS is already understaffed, doesn’t have the budget for it, and then they’re faced with this problem. So It’ll be an interesting one to see how it unfolds or evolves over time.

Okay. Well, let’s talk about another one of your expertise, or, yeah—your expertise, your company’s expertise, companies you like to work with. One of your niches, which is, again, one of my favorite things to talk about, is the FinTech industry. Tell me about—actually, I hear FinTech all the time. Can you define FinTech for me?

Sure. I mean, you know, there’s some bit that overlaps a little bit with, like, our crypto clients. So, you know, it might be a money transmitter, or a payment platform, or something like that. Really, FinTech at, to me at least, and I’m sure you could look on Google and find a thousand different definitions, but it’s really just technology that augments the financial industry, right? Or the financial profession. But it also, I guess, can encompass, like, you know, actual fintech tools like investment management and that sort of thing. 

FinTech’s an interesting one for us, though, because we don’t have a ton of clients, like, within that specific niche, like, alone. I would say, again, there’s a lot of overlap between, like, blockchain and FinTech because we have some companies that are in the blockchain space that kind of provide a FinTech type service. So, like, that kind of sub-niche, I guess, like, blockchain, crypto, FinTech, and then SAAS is really a drill down on, like, what I would call just a venture-backed technology company. Within that, though, there’s still certain companies that we stray away from. Like, you know, if you’re consumer packaged goods or something like that, even if you’re VC backed, you’re probably not going to be the best fit for us. But those are, like, the highest concentration of clients, like blockchain crypto, FinTech, and then, SAAS, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t others that are within some other sub-niche.

So when you’re looking at your niches, then, you know, this is, I mean, creating a niche is positive for a lot of things. You could become an expert in this area. You can show that you have this knowledge. How do you go about marketing, or business development, when you are this expert in these specific areas?

Yeah. Interesting—every single time I’m talking to someone who doesn’t know about the business, that’s, like, asking about the company. I always get asked, like, how do you find clients? Like, why are people contacting you? And that’s actually one of the first things I ever focused on is inbound marketing. So putting content out there, and letting people find that content. Because it does a couple of things. Like number one, it establishes, expertise and, evidence for you in that particular domain. But number two, it helps you attract, like, the right client that you’re looking for, the right customer. 

So, you know, sometimes ad buying, like, if you’re just purchasing ads on Google or something like that, it might be know, a business tax return is what you’re targeting. Where in reality, like, we want a startup who’s most likely to be a Delaware C corp—they’re searching certain things on the internet that we rank for, we have content out there for. And so they’re finding us, because they have a little bit more specific intent.

So is most of your new business then coming to you from this?

From inbound, yeah. Which I think is somewhat unique in the accounting space. I think has mostly been, like, outbound sales and referral based, but, yeah, we’ve been inbound.

Yeah. I’m pretty fortunate. I’ve interviewed a few people in the last couple months that have had that same type. I don’t know if you know Brandon Hall at all, The Real Estate CPA?

The Real Estate CPA, yeah. I’ve heard the name. I don’t know him personally, though.

Yeah. Well, probably, you know him on Twitter or something. And I saw you, your company has quite a few followers on Twitter. So that’s, I guess, it kind of in that technology space where probably that’s where people are hanging out. But yeah, so and was the same thing. He gets he was telling me about how many inbound leads he gets, and he just gets to go through them and pick and choose what are the ones that are the best fit for him. So I really like that about the modern—I’m going to call you the modern firm—the startup. Well, you’ve helped startups, but you are a startup, really, as well. That they’ve figured that out to do, you know, you don’t have to go all of these evening cocktail hours to try to meet, you know, somebody that maybe is a potential, or join the country club, or whatever. It makes things a lot better. 

How about your firm in general, then? Other uniqueness or other things that you’ve done that you think, are, you know, maybe not necessarily unique to you, but the you’re doing different than Big Four. The things that you saw that you, maybe you could change, things that you feel help you be more efficient, just other things from a productivity standpoint. What are you guys doing, anything there?

Yeah. I’ll go back to, and take it as a compliment earlier when you said, like, “modern firm.” Because I think tech enablement or tech adoption is a big part of what we do a little bit different. So our team is trained on our tech stack. Like, our clients are trained on the tech stack. And, like, we kind of utilize an industry best practice tech stack, like, with work with our clients, because you know, our team can do more, when we have the right tools in place, versus, like, you know, even if we have great processes and great people, if we don’t have the right tools, it’s just going to take longer to do those things and, like, we can’t price the same with clients, etc. So that’s, I think, one big thing that differentiates us a little bit. The other is I think a focus on work-life balance, which, it’s a genuine focus. It’s not just a fluff, I guess. 

Right.

Because, like, we’re going back to the whole content marketing thing, like, if you get that right, and you have an abundance of leads and you’re not operating in a scarcity mindset, like, wondering where your next client’s going to come from because you typically get them from referrals, like, that leads to an environment where you’re going above and beyond to attain clients who may not be the right fit for you, but also doing that so you can get that next client in the door. But when you figured out that, like, marketing and lead funnel, and you have optionality around, like, working with the right clients, it gives you a little bit more autonomy in terms of managing workload and really kind of living true to that work-life balance thing. I mean, that being said, like, there’s times, like, where, you know, hours are a little bit worse than others, but typically, especially on the accounting side, on average, it’s a 40 to 45 hour work week, even during, like, busier times like month end closes and such.

Alright. And how about, so is tax season a heavy time for you then, or are you more accounting based?

Accounting is the bigger part of the practice, but, we’re certainly busy during the tax time. So those hours, like, for staff are closer to, like, a 50 hour to 55 maybe. Which is still way better than, you know, 70, 80 hours as you hear about, in public accounting. The one unique thing I guess about working with venture-backed startups, which kind of, I won’t, like, take credit for or pretend like there’s some genius idea, is that a lot of tech startups or most tech startups actually operate at a loss, right?

Ahh.

So if you’re talking about extensions, you can extend companies that are operating at a loss and you don’t have to worry as much about, like, estimates and that sort of thing. I mean, there’s some state stuff you have to take care of, but by doing that, you can kind of spread the work out a little bit more throughout the year. I mean, that being said, like, we’ll also work with startup founders who are, you know, on the individual side, so we still have some of that bottleneck. But the venture-backed C Corp is surprisingly like a good tax client just from a capacity planning standpoint.

And how about from a tax planning standpoint then? Because if we are in a no tax situation, there’s probably still things that we want to make sure we take advantage of, even if it’s not going to be a current year benefit. Is that obviously not something happening March 15th, this is something that you’re dealing with throughout the year, or how does tax planning work with a company that’s not profitable?

Yeah. I guess for a company that’s not profitable, I think like your traditional, like, venture-backed C corp, a lot of it comes down to things like R&D tax credit studies, is one big one where we’ll do a lot of work there. But there’s also, I guess, less on the planning side, it’s more compliance, and this can be tricky. Like, state and local tax matters, especially for SAAS companies, understanding, like, when you have, sales tax nexus in a particular state and even, like, income tax nexus, especially now that the world’s become a little bit more remote from a work standpoint, that’s particularly challenging. Because, you know, people are hiring all over the place, and they may have established an income tax nexus in a new state because of hiring an employee there, and they may have some customers there. 

And then the rules around SAAS in particular, you know, some states tax it for sales tax. Some don’t. And then the ones that do have weird carve outs. So it keeps us busy, I guess, during the downtime between that and R&D tax credits.

So from a SALT standpoint, do you have an internal expert on that?

We don’t have, like, someone who would consider themselves to be a SALT expert. I think a lot of that, like, it’s augmented by, technology, like, you know, research tools like, Bloomberg and such. Like, they have really good portfolios and matrices that kind of help you walk you through exposure in different states and that sort of thing. But there’s still the human element, that you have to have looking at it.

Right. And then from the R&D standpoint, a lot of your companies probably being in the tech space and that are going to qualify. And so when you’re talking R&D tax credits, I’m assuming you’re talking the startup credit that you can use to offset payroll taxes for most of these companies?

Yep, exactly. That’s the majority of them will apply it that way.

Alright. and these new rules that just kicked in were now you can get up to, you know, up to $500,000 of a credit to offset payroll taxes—is that going to benefit any of your clients?

Yeah. It can. I haven’t done, like, an analysis, to say which ones in particular it will, because we’re doing the credit regardless of whether or not they get 500 or 250.

Right. And then, when you’re doing the credit because, under the rules, the old rules were before this year that $250,000 could be used to offset payroll taxes in any given year. And it was employer portion of Social Security taxes, now it’s employer portion of Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes. Went from $250,000, now to $500,000. And so the benefit could be nice, and you have that client base that really can benefit nicely from that. If you had anything above 250 in the past, obviously, you’re just carrying that forward on the return, and hopefully they’ll use it, or in reality, it’s probably an asset on a sale. Is that what happens to a lot of your startups? They ended up getting, you know, bought by someone else, once they become you know, whatever they’re doing becomes successful?

Yeah. We’ve had a lot of clients that have exited even in, like, the last 12 months alone to several companies that you would recognize, and I can’t really share much beyond that. 

No, that’s alright.

But I like, you know, big tech startups, so, yeah, we’ve seen kind of like from start, seed kind of stage, through scale and exit, which is kind of cool though too because, you know, you start working with a client when they’re just starting off on an an idea and then they get to to sell their company, and you know that you’re a small part of that. That’s kind of a cool feeling. 

Yep. 

Going back to the R&D tax credit, I’m sure you’re aware of this and heard have heard similar things, but there is a lot of kind of coaching that has to happen with, like, tech startups because there’s been a lot of, companies that have popped up kind of been like the robo advisor type software space that are reaching out to companies saying, yep, we can get you all this money. And the first thing I do when we talk to a client that we’re doing an R&D tax credit study for is I say, look, from a business standpoint, I understand you might say everything is R&D. Unfortunately, from the IRS’s standpoint, their definition is very different. and we have to fit, like, within those rules. So, like, it’s going to be interesting to see what happens.

Yep. For sure. I’ve been through all that as well. Well, I think we should probably start wrapping up. The whole story of the, you know, the niche you’re dealing with and how you work with it. I guess the one thing we did touch on, and I would be curious because I pretty much ask anybody that this that’s doing things a little different. From a billing standpoint, are you selling hours, or are you—have a different model in place?

That’s been an ongoing evolution. So I guess one, I guess, kind of additional piece of context is, like, at the beginning of this year, we formally merged in with another accounting firm. It’s a little bit smaller than us, kind of the complete opposite of what the model is that I had at the time, in that it’s really just partners and no staff and previously with myself and a bunch of staff, right? So, like, marrying kind of like the two billing styles, I guess, or billing techniques, or whatever you want to call it, has been an ongoing kind of process. Like, you can’t, you don’t really just transition that overnight.

But to answer your question, like, historically, we’ve done mostly value based billing, fixed fee. Like, I know their differences, for sure, but that’s generally what the client craves. At the same time, what we started to find, especially, working with fast growing startups, and the larger we got, the less, like, hands on or in the weeds I was with certain clients, we were getting burned quite a bit on scope creep. And, you know, the individuals who may have been managing that particular client, like, weren’t trained on value-based pricing or scope management and that sort of thing. And you know, we had kind of different priorities taking precedent, and so that wasn’t necessarily happening. 

And so we kind of put a mechanism in place, and we’re doing a little bit of a hybrid right now where, you know, it’s a fixed or value based price, but, you know, if there’s certain overages, like, we’re going to have to just bill for that time. But it’s kind of constrained in that, like, don’t want to have to sign an engagement letter for, you know, a state registration or probably something even less simple, or more simple than that. So we kind of have, like, a hybrid model at the moment, if that makes sense.

Okay. No. It makes sense. And I would think it’d be a little harder for you to even get into subscription pricing just with dealing with start because things can change so quick on that and what they need from you would change. So I think that’s the one area where maybe—because talking with Ron Baker, I don’t know if you know Ron.

Yeah.

But talking with basically and and I love Ron, but he was basically saying to anybody could do the subscription. And you maybe could, but I think it’s—I think personally, it’ll be harder for the companies you deal with. I don’t know if you agree with that or not.

Yeah, I think so. Especially if someone’s not, like, you know, whoever’s managing that particular project isn’t really trained up on, like, value based pricing and scope management and that sort of thing. Because things can change overnight with a startup. And then even at this, like, we have certain things in our engagement letter that say if the transaction volume goes up by x amount or, like, you raise a fundraising round or, like, certain things happen, like, we’ve gotta revisit the agreement. But I also see companies that price based off transaction volume, and, to me, that makes no sense because you can have a company with a thousand transactions a month that, it’s all the same transaction, it’s relatively simple, right?

Yep. 

And then a company with a hundred transactions that are really complex, it’s a bunch of accruals, like, all that kind of stuff, and, you can’t price those the same. So we do a little bit more of a deep dive on the discovery side and, like, really take our time when we’re pricing things out with clients rather than kind of rely on some arbitrary metric.

Okay. So let’s just to wrap up the pricing they’re billing. Are you keeping track of hours?

Yeah. So the team does track their time. We don’t keep track of metrics like utilization or anything like that. To me, those are kind of, vanity KPIs, they’re meaningless, because they can be manipulated, that sort of thing. The reason we’re doing it is to have a benchmark of, like, you know, scope creep and profitability with the client. I don’t care if something’s 10% over budget or whatever it may be. I’m looking for huge outliers, which time tracking, I know is not particularly precise, but it is going to give you at least a general sense of, like, what is going into a particular client and identify issues. Whereas on the other side, you have to have, like, trained and skilled managers who are able to manage that scope creep and, like, manage a client in the engagement. 

Okay. Alright. So I think we’re going to stop—not stop. We’re going to slow down the conversation there. So two final questions. You know, and I think we talked about this a little at the beginning already, but there’s probably other things as well: Besides running the firm and working with your clients, what’s your outside of work passions? What do you love doing when you’re not working?

Yeah. I’m going to sound very boring here, I feel like, but kind of, like, typical type stuff, I guess—really big Chicago Cubs fan. I’m a season ticket holder. 

Yes!

And so I’m just, a lot of sports and watching games, and attending them, spending time with friends and and family. I also have a dog who is four.

Rufus?

Rufus. Yeah. A little over four now. He’s great. Yeah. I mean, I like to golf, so it tends to all, like, sound like it’s sports-related. Not a great golfer, but I love to get out. So and then an involvement in, kind of, like, extracurricular, you know, “beat the streets” type stuff, which, I wish I could be more involved in—it’s one of my goals. But so I sound super boring. I don’t have a great, like, all I climb mountains or cross-country ski.

Nope. That is fine. In fact, so I’m going to be in D.C. next week. And, again, this will probably air months after you and I are talking right now. Guest of the National Restaurant Association, and they’re taking me, I think, a Skybox against the—the Nationals are playing the Cubs. So I’m pretty excited and I get to go out there, and watch the Cubs game. So that’ll be fun.

Oh, I guess I thought of something that’s unique about me. It’s not, like, that interesting, but I do teach, I have been teaching at Northwestern University in their undergraduate program for—since 2016. I’m like, terrible with dates. But for a while now, I teach a class, or co-teach a class called Accounting and Finance for Startups. 

Makes sense!

So I’ve taught hundreds of students at this point. And so that’s fun. Like, it’s work, but it’s a different kind of work. I like working with students and, you know, passionate people who are trying to get ideas off the ground and that sort of thing.

Yep. One of my passions is just educating. I do webinars and whatnot all the time, and this is education we’re doing here today. This is what I really like to do. 

So alright, then last, final question, if people want to find out more about you or find out about the firm, or things that you’re doing, where would they get more information?

Yeah. Our website for the firm is FoundersCPA.com. And then, like, if you’re looking to contact us, there’s a contact us form. I’m also available on LinkedIn. I think it’s just like LinkedIn and then my full name, Curt Mastio, and happy to to chat, you know, really any capacity, especially if people are looking for something a little bit different in their careers. LikeI mentioned earlier, we are hiring for several open roles right now, and the only thing holding us back from a growth perspective is having those right people.

Nice. Awesome. Well, Curt, it was fun. It was a great conversation. I enjoyed learning about the firm and what you’re doing and the uniqueness—oh, you fit The Unique CPA. There you go. The uniqueness that you’re doing. And so thanks again, and I’m sure you and I will be in touch, talking again at some point in time. Hopefully, somewhere, maybe we’ll go grab a beer in Chicago or something.

Yeah. Hopefully, we cross paths again soon. Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. I appreciate it.