Today our guest is Tori McKee. Tori is the owner of Best Practice Bookkeeping and Payroll. She is also a member of FreshBooks FreshPack—I think newly appointed in 2024, she can expand on that if I’m wrong there—which is, you know, basically their advisory partner council. Maybe she can expand on that as well. But before we even do that, I just want to say Tori, welcome to The Unique CPA.

Thank you, Randy. I’m happy to be here.

Well, I’m happy you’re here too. We’ve talked about this over a month or so ago, and I’m glad we got this done. I had to postpone one time, so thank you for being patient with me. My wife and I have been on the road for three and a half weeks now, and only seven more weeks to go, but the schedule gets a little crazy when we’ve stayed in, I think, 10 places in the last 24 days. We’re in one spot for 30 days now, which will be nice. 

So, alright, I did a very basic introduction of who you are, what you do, but, you know, why don’t you give us a little more on the background of you and the business, and then we’ll get into the point of the conversation today, which is going to be pretty interesting.

Okay, well, I have been in business for a little over six years. I started working at CPA firms. I was a licensed tax preparer for a couple of years. I’ve done taxes, and I actually am one of the weirdos that likes doing taxes. I think it makes me a better bookkeeper, but I haven’t had time for like three years to do taxes. 

Alright, that’s what I was going to ask. So taxes were a thing. They’re not currently a thing, but I kind of like that because I don’t like it—I love taxes—and I’m one of those people too. I don’t do them anymore, but I love talking about them at a minimum, which is nice. But, so the business is bookkeeping and payroll. So you’ve got the niche from there, which is, I think, nice sticking to certain things, but sorry, you were going to go on.

I was not prepared for this because my friend told me, “Oh, make sure you’re ready to introduce yourself.” And then I listened to a couple of episodes and you did the introduction. They didn’t have to do it. So I was like, “Oh, don’t have to do that.” So you sprung it on me.

That’s alright. We’re off the cuff. We go anywhere. See, we’re already flexibility showing in the show here. Well, anything else you want to add to my brief introduction?

Just that my thinking has changed, my business has changed, a lot especially in the last two or three years, coming from a CPA background, working for CPA firms. They’re not, for the most part, super fast at changing or adopting new technology. And so I’d never seen any other way to do things other than the way that your typical CPA firm does things. And so I realized now that some of my struggles were trying to kind of fit into that box. And I’ve been a late adopter of technology for that reason. Mostly because I was like, “Oh no, we don’t do it that way.” So I’ve had some struggles with that. But part of what got me here where I am now is community. I found a community where I found support and friendship and I feel like I belong, and that has made a huge difference.

That’s nice. I’m a big proponent of community and with the impact that has on us personally and professionally. So that’s great to hear. Well, so what we’re going to talk about today, and we haven’t even teased this yet, the topic, I think you kind of addressed it a little bit, is that you said six and a half years in business with Best Practice Bookkeeping. You came to the decision I think fairly recently, and you can expand on that, but that it was time to redefine what this business is. And as you put it to me, burn it down and build it up again. And so let’s get into that because I find it interesting. 

And actually, before we do that, I’m going to talk about something you said: The whole CPA, this is how we do it, this is the only way we do it, let’s, you know, we’ve been doing it this way forever, you know, the SALY Method, same as last year, all that stuff. And I unfortunately think too many firms get bogged down in that because it’s just, “Hey, it’s not broken, why am I going to fix it?” Well, it is broken, because there’s so much more efficiencies you can do, especially with adapting technology and just innovation in general and just new mindset. So, for you, the whole burning down and building up, one, the mindset around it—how did you come to this decision? And I guess what caused you to go to that length to build back up the firm?

Well, I was sitting here at around, I don’t know, 11PM working on something, and it was probably a Saturday or Sunday and I got frustrated and I thought, “I’m done. I can’t do this anymore. I’ve been working 70, 80 hours a week, most weeks for three years.” And I finally realized that working harder and working more were not the keys to what I wanted to do, which was catch up. I always thought, “Oh, if you catch up, you’ll be able to work regular hours,” but I realized that I was never going to catch up. It just wasn’t going to happen, because I was over capacity and there’s just only so much me to go around. And so I thought, “This isn’t working. This isn’t what I want to do. Nothing is going to change. I’m burning it down. Going to start over. I’m going to take the lessons that I’ve learned and restart my business the way that I would start it if I were starting it today, with everything that I’ve learned in the last couple of years.”

And so, it sounds like, not just burn it down, it sounds like the hours put in for three straight years and 70, 80 hours a week, that burnout was probably, not to put words in your mouth, but probably a significant issue with what you were going through. Is that correct?

Oh yeah, burnout totally was a factor, and maybe that’s where the burn it down thing came from, was me being burned down, burned out. I don’t know, but yeah, for sure.

Alright, and so just a couple of questions before we get into the hows of it, I guess, but from burning it down, from looking at it, to build this firm that, you know, let’s call it the firm of your dreams, now that you’ve learned more, now that you know more, now you know technology and everything else, how has this impacted the client base? Are you releasing clients, or have clients already left and that’s one reason, just because you couldn’t handle it? From a client standpoint, where do you stand with who you were helping in the past?

Part of my plan was to rehome some clients, and I’ve been successful in doing that. Not as many as I thought—I initially sent out an email saying, “I’m going to be making some changes. Here are some of the things I’m going to be doing. I’m going to be refocusing on customer service because I know that’s not been at the level that I would like it to be for the last couple of years. Going along with that, I’m implementing technology, I am making some changes to processes, I’m going to be raising my rates, I’m going to be billing before I provide services instead of after, and I’m going to be going a hundred percent paperless, no more dropping stuff off at my office. I understand if that is not going to work for you. You know, I’ve enjoyed working with you and I hope to continue, but if this isn’t your thing, that’s fine. Let me know. I will do whatever I can to help you make a clean and smooth transition.” Most of the clients that I had hoped would take me up on that did, thankfully.

Yes.

I had one or two surprises, which was okay. I actually did have to disengage with two or three clients, or maybe four. And then I had one, that it totally backfired. I have one client that has two businesses and they’re very attached to paper. They don’t even do online banking. If I set them up on a new payroll system and they need to do the test transactions, they will drive to the bank to find out how much those test transactions were. And I said, you know, “No more paper. You’re going to have to scan and PDF everything. Online bank access for me,” all of these things. And I just, I knew that they were going to bolt and they’re like, “We talked it over and we really like working with you. So we’re going to figure it out. We’re probably going to need a lot of help, but we’re going to figure it out.” So, I mean, I love them. It’s like an F on rehoming clients, but it was an A on the client being happy with me and liking working with me, so I can’t really call it a failure.

No, assuming that it’s a client you enjoy. Although, man, it’d be tough to enjoy a client that was at that level, but the fact that they enjoyed working with you, the fact that they’re going to make this transition because of you, that says a lot. And I think that’s important. You kind of went into the kind of things you are doing, but this whole transition, I mean, you told them ahead of time, here’s what we’re going to do. You know, pricing, obviously, model change, everything’s, you know, going to be electronic. I guess more of the how this is, one, you know, that initial transition, but then the how of, you know, getting everybody to follow the new rules and just other hows of this process. So let’s go into as many of those as you can bring up.

Well, you said it, it’s a process. Because my business is so payroll-heavy—or it has been actually as of January 1st, I’m transitioning quite a few clients out who are payroll clients—so I’ve been really busy doing a lot of those year-end things. I have a lot of little pieces that are partially done. I don’t have the luxury of time to move kind of linearly through this. So I don’t really have anything that’s complete yet. I implemented a practice-management workflow application and I keep forgetting to use it, but it’s there. And right now it’s more of a, rather than keeping me on task, it’s more of a, I open it up and I look at it and I think, “Oh crap, I forgot to do that.” And so it’s like a reminder rather than a proactive thing, but I’ll get better at that. You know, I’m a process. 

And I’m in the process of implementing an engagement-letter, proposal, payment platform. It’s not there yet, but it’s not for lack of trying on the part of the rep who’s working with me. But that is in process. Once I get through the year-end and then the beginning of the month payrolls, I’ll be able to really focus on these things and implementing, putting things more into practice, I guess. One thing that I have done is I found a new payroll solution and have moved almost all of my payroll clients into that, moving out of QuickBooks Desktop Payroll. That has gone really well. I have, in less than a month, almost all my clients are onboarded. The software, it’s still, it’s not as easy to use as QuickBooks Desktop Payroll, but, you know, I have a deep affection for QuickBooks Desktop Payroll.

Really? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody say those words before. I’ve always heard, “Boy, Desktop QuickBooks Payroll is just not good.” But, you apparently are the opposite.

Well, QuickBooks Online Payroll is, I’m not a fan.

Oh, maybe that’s it.

But QuickBooks Desktop is great for accountants because it lets us do what we need to do. Because sometimes you just have unique situations that are correct, but it’s hard to get from here to there, and Desktop gives you the flexibility to do that where other apps don’t really. 

So now everybody, except for a few special, unique problem children, are in the new app. It seems to be going well. Their employees like it better. And so that is one thing that is nearly complete that I think my gut feeling is that it’s a success, and it’s going to stay, and I’ll be able to move forward after that’s kind of the biggest piece of what I needed to fix in order to fix everything else.

Okay, and then, so let’s talk more technology because that was one of the key things you said is that technology was an area that you didn’t know you can automate all these things. When you’re working with clients, are you requiring a certain tech stack that they’re using that obviously this payroll, you’re running for them, so you’re using it. But, you know, from an accounting standpoint, is it, you know, everybody has to use FreshBooks or everybody has to use this? Are you using something specific there? And I don’t know if you deal with anybody that’s POS systems, but from a technology standpoint, are you dictating what they use to be able to work with you or how does that go?

As far as my clients’ technology, most of them kind of follow my lead. I do need to get away from QuickBooks Desktop, not only because it’s on its way out sooner or later, depending on who you talk to, but because I need a solution where I can work remotely easily, and working with QuickBooks Desktop remotely requires special measures that are not always convenient. Sometimes it can be cumbersome. And so I do have, most of my clients are in QuickBooks Desktop still. I do have a couple in FreshBooks. I have some in Xero. I’m not quite sure what I’m going to do with QuickBooks Desktop clients—that’s going to be probably pretty soon, the beginning of phase two of rebuilding is finding a solution that’s going to work. I don’t want to do the same thing with an accounting software that I did with payroll, and put my clients through the whole roller coaster of that. So I want to be really sure when I roll it out. But FreshBooks is great for some clients. Xero is great for some clients. I don’t know yet what that other solution is that’s going to be great for me, for the rest of those clients.

Okay, and then how about from a, you mentioned this, that when you sent your letter out that, “Hey, my pricing is going to change,” you know, what, I guess, pricing did you come from, and where are you going with pricing now?

That’s a good question. So, coming from the CPA background, it’s, you know, you bill hourly. From the ones that I came from, not all, obviously. And so that’s what I’ve been doing more or less. And I am, last year I moved my payroll clients to a monthly fee. This year I’m moving everybody to a monthly fee. So billing sucks the life out of me. I just cannot do it anymore. I procrastinate it, it takes me a whole day to do it, and I just am over it. 

And I’m going to be raising my rates because when I started, I was pretty new, and I had a pretty good idea of what the market was, but then when I was feeling comfortable enough in my business, COVID hit, and I had clients who were barely hanging on. I was actually planning my first rate increase and I held off and I ended up holding off for too long because I was too busy to figure out how much to charge people. So I finally did a small rate increase last year, but I’m still kind of below where I should be. And I find myself struggling with, “Oh, you know, I can’t really afford it if I raise them this much. So maybe…” But I have realized that I need to be okay with not being the right bookkeeper for everybody, and that I can have a couple special cases that are dear to my heart for whatever reason, but I can’t do it as their friend. I need to be their bookkeeper, I need to be their advisor, and I can’t feel guilty about charging my value. I need to be able to charge a reasonable price, you know, not just charge them a whole bunch of money because I can, and they can afford it because that’s not right, but I need to be able to charge them appropriately for the value that they receive for my services. You know, that they are—this is a mess of an explanation.

No, you’re good. You’re good. This is a great explanation.

Somebody said a while ago that you need to remember that you’re charging for your brain, not your time. And so I keep having to remind myself that just because something only takes me 15 minutes, it only takes me 15 minutes because I’ve been doing it for 12 years. And it doesn’t take into account all of the context I have with this client that allows me to do it in 15 minutes. So, just because it’s something that takes me a very short amount of time doesn’t mean that it doesn’t provide a big value to them.

Oh no, that is a perfect explanation, and that is what we as an industry, what we as a profession, too often have that dilemma in our heads, which we have to get rid of, because we are sharing years and years of knowledge when it takes us that 15 minutes, we have X amount of dollars invested in technology that helps us do it in that 15 minutes, then we’re there for their behalf and they rely on us. And so, yeah, don’t take advantage, but bill what you’re worth, bill your value. And too often, I think as a profession, we give away our services. And so I’m glad to hear that you’re going in a different direction with that.

Another thing about that goes into pricing too, is when I started, and for the first several years, I was using QuickBooks Desktop for everything, which is a once-a-year fee. And so I didn’t really pass on any technology fees because there wasn’t really any, and it wasn’t, I mean, it would have been like, I don’t know, I figured it out one day, like 75 cents a month per client or something. 

Right. 

So it’s like, you know, “Okay, I round it up to the next dollar, sure, that’s a technology fee,” but my technology fees have gone like, I don’t even know, three or four hundred percent higher, and I wasn’t including that in my billing for the first year because it didn’t really occur to me. So now that’s part of the rate increase as well. As I mentioned, I increased my rates for payroll last year with what I thought was going to be the technology fees, but the technology fees ended up being much more for the payroll. And so I basically ended up, for most of my payroll clients, working for free.

So that’s a good lesson learned.

Yeah, it was a hard lesson, but it helps me to remember when I start feeling guilty about raising my prices a significant amount at once that I can’t work for free.

Right. No, that’s for sure. Let’s talk a little bit about the clients that you’re servicing. Is this a, you know, all-encompassing, anybody that needs bookkeeping services, you’re available to them, or bookkeeping and payroll services. In this rebuild, are you looking, is this even an option to maybe get more niched in who you’re dealing with? Has that come up in the process yet?

You’re a “nitch,” not a “neesh” person.

I’m a “nitch.” Oh, I have this argument a lot. Kelly Parks and I will have this discussion often.

So, I realized recently that my niche has been people who pay me, which, I wish I could take credit for that, because it’s very clever, but I got that from somebody else. But it’s true. So, I have a little bit of everybody—I have retail, I have cleaning services, I have a winery, a farm, construction, trades, medical office, and I don’t know that any of them are anything that I want to specialize in. I think that I really like working with small businesses. I’ve thought about picking a niche. 

“Nitch?” Alright. 

I’m throwing down with the “neesh.” I’ve thought about that, but that’s something that if I decide to, it will happen later. I can’t make any more decisions right now, and I have no idea where that would lead me right now.

You’ve got a lot going on, so, you know, it doesn’t necessarily have to, for sure. Just curious if that had been thought of, and it sounds like there has been a little bit of a thought process there. Let’s go into, because this is a big deal—this is not something that you do lightly, this whole, let’s redefine what this business is and change everything, and just the scariness of telling the clients, this is what you’re doing. Part of that has helped you through this, we talked about it a little bit at the beginning, is community and friends and support you receive. Why don’t you talk about how important community is for you.

Community is everything. It is life-changing, and I keep saying that the #TaxTwitter community changed my life, and the #TaxTwitter Retreat changed it even more and since then there have been a couple of other things or events that have changed my life, changed me. Last night I was looking and I found that there were 15 people who have changed my life in big or small ways in the last 14 months, including you.

Oh wow, I’m honored.

And at least that many more who have made an impact or who have inspired me. All of that is from finding a community, finding a place where I fit, finding my people. It makes such a difference: when you go through life feeling like you don’t quite fit and you have imposter syndrome because you think, “Well, there are these people who do this better than me, or they’re more this, or more that, or less this.” And then you find a group of people where you just fit, it’s like you’re a puzzle piece and there was a hole there waiting for you and you just fit right in. And it’s a lot to wrap your head around it, being our age, and having that kind of an epiphany and a complete change in a dynamic and how you see yourself, and so it’s kind of the same feeling as imposter syndrome, but it’s instead of feeling, “I can’t do this, I’m not good enough,” it is, “I am good enough. I can do this, but how do I do this?” And so the end result is still, you know, people keep saying, “Oh, imposter syndrome.” And that’s not really it. It’s more like, I just don’t know where to begin. I don’t know how to do this.

You know, when you asked me to be on the podcast at first, it kind of was imposter syndrome a little bit, but that was sort of right around the same time where I had this realization when I was in Orlando. And by the time I agreed to do this, it was more like, okay, I do maybe have something to say, but I don’t know how. I don’t know how to use my voice yet. And it’s been kind of interesting. I’m kind of glad I’ve been too busy to really think much about it because I’m not really sure where that would end up. Nowhere good, I’m sure. But it’s been a journey. It’s been life-changing. 

I can thank Kelly Parks for starting me on this whole thing with a Facebook post a couple of years ago saying, “I don’t know if any of you have heard of Jason Staats, but if you’re not following him on Twitter, go follow him on Twitter. #TaxTwitter.” And I was procrastinating, and I was having a bad day, so I was like, “Okay, I’ll go check this guy out.” And I kind of found a home there, even though I don’t do tax, as I mentioned, it’s just a really supportive community and it made me want to do more. I’m pretty introverted, so when I made the decision to go to a conference in San Diego by myself, not knowing anybody there, that was kind of a big deal. 

And I had talked to Kelly online a little bit, like just in Facebook or something, and I introduced myself to her, which was me being brave, and we connected and that sort of started, she was my gateway to my community. You know, she started me in the online community that I’m part of, and she has introduced me to people. She’s made sure when she’s seen me at other events, she’s made sure that, you know, alright, here’s my introverted friend. Are you doing okay? You know, what can I do? And let’s chat. Tell me how you’re doing. And it just sort of went from there. So one of the things that you asked her in your episode with her was how did we meet? How did—you asked Kelly how you met.

Okay, I’ll ask you that too then.

I’m gonna ask you how we met.

Okay, so, I honestly, I’m 100 percent sure I know this answer, but now I’m thinking, man, do I have this backwards? Did we meet before I think we actually met? But, I thought we met originally at the #TaxTwitter Retreat last August in Denver.

We did. But when we met, Kelly had said, you mentioned something, she said, “Oh, tell Tori hi.”

Oh, yes.

And she wasn’t able to make it, and you kept saying, “When did we meet? I know you. I know we met before.” That’s right. It was like 10 minutes ago. That’s when we met.

That’s right. And I thought we had. I actually thought we had.

And you said the same thing to Kelly, is that you felt like you’d met her before, but you kept thinking, “No, but, yes.” So I thought that was kind of funny.

Oh, wow. It’s the same thing. See, it’s just that in some of it’s online, you know of people without knowing people, and I’m like, “Okay, have I met this person or do I just, have I seen them on #TaxTwitter? Have I seen them on, you know, LinkedIn or have I seen them there?” So, okay, I forgot that story, but now that you’re reminding me, I do remember that story as well. And then we were together again at another conference a couple of weeks later. Conferences to me are a big thing. Community is a big thing. Getting support from that community, which sounds like has been big for you and probably big through this transition as well, which is a big deal. 

I think I could go on for a long time, but unfortunately, I’m going to have to start wrapping up today because I have another commitment in 15 minutes. One final thing I want to ask is, or just point out that, and you had mentioned this is, you know, when people hear what you’re doing. And this goes to the community aspect of it too. They’re like, “Okay, I’ve been thinking about this. I should do this. Let me know how this goes.” And so it’s almost like you’re going to create a community of people that are going to go down the same path and you’re going to be this leader down this path that then they’re going to look to for support and all help each other along the way. I assume that’s how you kind of look at that as well.

Kind of, yeah. I was really surprised that once I started talking about this, how many people have sort of come out of the woodwork and said, “Yes, I’ve done this. Yes, I need to do this,” or, “I need to do this, but I don’t, I haven’t wanted to talk about it because I feel like, you know, it’s a failure” or whatever, and that’s kind of what led me to realizing, “So maybe I do have something to say that people want to hear, and it’s not necessarily something that’s groundbreaking or, you know, exciting or new technology or other things that people want, people tend to speak about, but people relate to it. And it’s something that people think about and they feel shame, or it’s hard to be vulnerable and be open about struggles.” 

And so I’ve been trying to be really transparent. I’ve been documenting my process in a community that I’m part of, and we did a zoom thing about it the day before Thanksgiving and we expected like three people to show up and it was something like 20 people showed up, to talk about it. And you know, the day before Thanksgiving, when everybody’s traveling, that was a big indication that my journey is resonating with people, that people want to hear about this. They want to be inspired to make their own changes, whatever they may be. My biggest suggestion with that is find your people, find your community, whatever that is, whatever that looks like.

Yep. And I’m hoping the goal or the result of this is less hours, no more 70 hours, at least as much income in less time so that you can have that work-life balance that to some people seems like a mythical thing, but it can be reality.

Yes, for sure. And time to go to conferences.

And conferences, which is key. I mean, I personally go to a lot, but I enjoy them. Often I’m speaking at them too, or I’m sponsoring them, but I just always enjoy the conference end of things. Alright, before we completely wrap up, I want to go, and I think you did a nice wrap on that right there. I was going to ask you to do a final wrap, and I think we got it there anyways. So before we finish up today, two final questions, and if you listened to a full episode, you probably have heard me ask these. But, hopefully, you have time, now that you’re making changes, to have a life outside of work, and have some passions outside of work. I’m guessing one of those passions is actually going to conferences, but we’re going to ignore that one for now. What are the things you enjoy doing when you’re not working, when you’re not working with clients? What are your passions outside of work?

I’m not sure about passions because I was trying to think about that and I’m too tired to be passionate about anything right now, except for maybe catching up on sleep, but I miss cooking. I really miss cooking. I miss gardening, hiking, walking, reading. I’m really boring and old.

No, those are all great. And those are reasons to make this change. So you have time for those as well.

Yes, for sure. And one of the things that I’m finding that I’m really enjoying in the last couple of months is writing and being a little bit more creative and connecting people and helping people. And even though that’s sort of encompassed in my work, it’s not really what I do for work. And so it kind of counts, maybe. That’s something outside of work, but I’ve really been enjoying, like, helping friends refine their submission for a conference.

I’ve seen that firsthand, actually. So you helped somebody submit to our conference, so I appreciate that. I sense a presentation coming out of this transition that you’re doing, that you’ll be able to help others with by educating them on what you went through and the pros and the cons and the goods and the bads and the do’s and the don’ts and the best practices. So I have a feeling with the writing that you’re enjoying doing, that has a possibility of being a final outcome of the results of this as well. You don’t have to tell me yes or no.

There are quite a few people who have done a similar thing for different reasons. There are a lot of different reasons to do what I’m doing, and I could probably name five of them right now. We’ve talked sort of about maybe putting together a presentation, a panel about different reasons, different ways, different methods, so that may be coming in 2025, I don’t know.

Alright, and then final question then, if people want to hear more about you or see what you’re doing, you mentioned #TaxTwitter as a community that you’re part of, but where would people see you, reach out to you, connect with you?

Probably on Twitter. Twitter or LinkedIn, those are the places where I am, even if I’m not active, I’m at least scrolling through while I’m waiting for something to load on my computer or whatever. So yeah, #TaxTwitter, LinkedIn, I’ll be there.

Tori, I really appreciate you doing this. I’m glad that you made the decision to be part of this. And I honestly see a follow-up coming in a year to just kind of track the progress of what you’ve learned again through this last year and see what else you can advise people to make this leap in decision and make it as smooth as possible for them. So, thank you very much for being here today.

Thank you, Randy. I’m happy I did it. Thank you for just sending me the link and saying, “Pick a day,” because you were tired of me saying, “Well, I don’t know.”

I’m old, I kind of just get bossy. “Hey, just pick a day, let’s go, we’re going to do this. If you don’t like it, we don’t have to do it.” I liked it, so hopefully you did as well.

Well, and you know, as you said, it’s the law, I have to do it if you tell me to. Because, you know, you’re on the list.

Exactly. That’s what, that’s one of the benefits I get apparently. So, then watch for a follow-up. I think we will do that down the road.

I would be happy to. Thanks, Randy. It was nice catching up.