Today on The Unique CPA, we’re talking with someone who’s built the kind of accounting firm many dream of: lean, profitable, and completely aligned with her life. Erica Goode is a solo firm owner who brings in over $200K a year, working just 15 hours a week—that’s right, 15 hours a week. She’s the author of the ironically titled The 15 Hour Accountant, host of the Consultants & Money Podcast, and actually a former KPMG auditor, which maybe I have to ask her about because I could never deal with audit, and the director of finance at a Fortune 50 company. Today we’re going to be talking about the surprising power of doing less, but doing it really well. Erica, welcome to the show.

Hey, Randy. Thanks so much for having me on.

Yeah, I’m looking forward to this. When I first saw your 15 hour thing, probably like everybody, and I’m sure you hear this all the time: “Really? She does this in 15 hours, is that a real thing?” But we’ll get into that today. And I’ve heard you talk about it before, so I know it is a real thing, but it’s an interesting title for the book because it does grab your attention and you probably get skepticism from some people. But let’s dig into it. So before we even get into the 15 hours, before we even hear how you’re doing this, let’s talk about your past. I did mention KPMG, I did mention a Fortune 50 company, and you talk about in the book that actually burnout was something that was impacting you from those. So why don’t you give us a little bit of the history of that KPMG and the Fortune 50 company.

Yeah.

And how did that affect you? Sorry, Erica, go ahead.

No, for sure. I came out of college just in a standard accounting trajectory, as I’m sure many do. I went Big Four because that’s what somebody told me to do, and that’s really what is—I was at a big university, that’s what’s talked about. You just pick which four, go interview all of them, and that’s where you go. Maybe you look at a mid-size firm, but you for sure want to go Big Four if you can. And that was just the messaging. And so I did, and I don’t regret that—it was a great experience. I could only do it for about three years. You know, you’re either a lifer or you’re not, and most of us are not.

And so I did it, it was great. I met my husband there. I would of course do it again for that and that alone. He’s also a CPA and was there. It was good exposure, good experience. It gave me resume building to jump to my next role where I went to Walgreens headquarters, and I spent the rest of my corporate career there just jumping around, starting in, you know, I was a fixed assets accountant when I started there, and I just bounced around. I was one of those people where when you’re good, you get pushed into different roles and you move up quickly and furiously, and it was great, and then I had babies. Well, I had a baby first, right? We started a family and probably when our oldest was a year old, I was offered and encouraged to apply for a much larger role than I had ever had. So I was a manager, I was encouraged to apply for a director role, and there’s a level in between that. But they were like, “You’re the person we’d like you to apply for this.” 

Wow! 

And I was very trepidatious about it, right? Like, I wasn’t sure, that felt like a lot—I had a one-year-old, and I also had this feeling in me, like, I’ve got to do this for every mom, every working mom here, like, I’ve got to prove that we can do this, like we can have it all, right? Because our whole childhood, we’ve always been told we can do anything and then they expect us to do everything, right? And so I took this role—Randy, it was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. It was so bad, and everybody could see that it was bad. And it wasn’t just like the role was bad or the boss was bad. It was just like the situation was bad at the company in that moment of history. It was just all, you know, storms colliding and it was just rough. Not to mention I had a one-year-old. And it was not what I had hoped it would be. It was surely not worth the money and the title and the prestige. And I went through a really, really rough season of burnout. And it was hard, like it was hard. I’m sure people listening to this have been through burnout. Randy, I don’t know if you’ve been through burnout?

I have. 

It doesn’t feel good.

No.

It doesn’t feel good mentally. It doesn’t feel good physically. I remember there was a time in that particular season, I had to go to my annual doctor checkup and I could only schedule it at lunch because I didn’t have time for anything else. And so I rushed over and mind you, I was like 29 years old. I appeared to be in good health and I sat down and she’s like, “Oh, your blood pressure is like 150 over 110.” And I was like, “Oh.” And she’s like, “It’s probably just because you’re nervous because you’re in the office.” And she brushed it off and I was like, no—like I knew deep down, that was not the reason that it was so high. It was just a season where it was hitting me and I was working until odd hours of the night and into the morning. And I also had a baby and I was a new mom and I had a husband and it was rough. 

And so, I will say this now, I would not have said this at the time: I am so grateful for that experience. It showed me what I was chasing, and what I should be chasing, and what I shouldn’t be chasing. And it was a ton of perspective in, retrospectively, very early in my career. I was 29 at the time, and I was so grateful that I got such an awful experience so early to show me what was important and what wasn’t, and who I wanted to be, and who I wanted to emulate, and the role models—I had always looked for a role model and it was really clear that there were no role models for what I wanted to do in my life. And it was really just a moment of, I had to come to Jesus, I’ll be honest. And unwound from that, I stayed at the company for another couple years, kind of rebuilding, letting some options vest, and I eventually actually just stopped and left and became a stay-at-home mom for a couple years.

How many years total was it at that organization then?

I was there seven years, I believe. Yeah.

How long do you think the burnout was affecting you?

In that particular role, in that particular season, it was an intense seven months.

Yeah. Yep. That’s crazy. 

Can tell you exactly what day it started and exactly what day it ended.

Did it end when you quit, or—?

When it ended, yes. I actually championed myself for a demotion and I sold myself and I did all the things I needed to do to stay at that company and to make sure that I still had a job. And even if it was a less than job, which I’ll be honest, Randy, is like a wretched ego hit. 

Yeah. What you just said—say it again—about the experience you went through, you’re thankful for, I’m not sure if I’m putting your words in your mouth. How did you say that?

I would say that, yeah—I would say that now. I would not have said that at the time. But I can look back and be really grateful for that.

And that’s, I don’t know if you’ve heard my story before, but I say a very similar thing, and a funny thing is I was being interviewed on a podcast yesterday and, you know, 11 years ago I had a stroke, and that stroke changed my whole perspective on everything. And so when they were talking to me yesterday, they asked me about it—they didn’t say stroke. They said, you have a story of this, of something that happened in the past. They were dancing around it. And I said, “Yeah, so something happened to me 11 years ago that it’ll sound odd now when I say it to you, but I am super grateful for it: 11 years ago I had a stroke.” And I feel guilty saying that at times, and people on the podcast have heard me say this before, but because it changed my whole perspective, and looked at what was important and helped me follow my passion and what I like doing. So it sounds like even though it was seven months of not a lot of fun, it opened up your mind to realize this isn’t what I want to do, and now I have to figure out what I want to do. So, we left off, before I took over the conversation here and you leaving for a couple years, raising kid…kids? Was there a second one then?

Yeah. So there was a second one in there post-burnout. We had another kid, and at the time I left corporate, they were one and five, and I got to put my new kindergartner on the bus on the very first day of school—that was kind of my moment in time. I was like, I’m going to be a stay-at-home mom and put this oldest one on the bus for kindergarten, and it was really great. And I did that for two years where I was, quote, “just” a stay-at-home mom. Nobody send me dirty emails. I know it is hard work, but that is what I was doing and it was lovely and I don’t regret it and it was wonderful. And then I missed accounting.

You missed accounting. Alright. Well, that’s good. It’s a good thing. So let’s go into then the origin story of, so how did this 15 hour journey start for you?

Yeah, I accidentally—I don’t know, I hear this from other people— I accidentally started an accounting firm. I accidentally got my first client. I was in a Tae Kwon Do class as a parent watching my daughter, and there was something about this business owner, the TaeKwonDo instructor, she just had a wonderful personality, and I started a conversation and I just threw it out there. I just said, “Hey, if you ever need help with accounting stuff, I do that—if you ever need help.” And she said, “Great, when can you meet?” And I was like, oh. She’s like, “I need help with my QuickBooks. Can we set up a meeting?” And I was like, sure. Literally in this one conversation, and so we wound up meeting and I had never seen QuickBooks—I was used to big systems, big businesses, lots of zeroes at the end of every budget. And I had never seen QuickBooks, and I was so scared that I was going to mess up this sweet woman’s small business accounting. I just taught myself, like you, as we all do. When you don’t know something, you teach yourself. You become a pro advisor. You do all the training and you just learn it along the way. I always tell people, as long as you know the accounting—if you know the accounting, you’re fine. You can learn the tech and the software. That’s easy. But we second guess ourselves, thinking we can’t do this because we don’t know the tech, whereas we spent how many years in school and in corporate and in public, knowing the accounting. You know the accounting, you’re fine. 

So that was my first client and it took off—well, it took off from there, but took off with the speed of a tortoise because I had that burnout exposure. And because I had left corporate, I was so, so, so afraid of going back to burnout, and I was so afraid of chasing the wrong thing that I committed to myself specifically that I would not work when the kids were home. If I was going to be a stay-at-home mom, I could only work when they were in preschool or school. And at that age, they are barely at school. So I started working two hours a week. That’s all. I worked two hours a week for the first year.

Was it that one client then?

Just one client. And I didn’t tell anybody else I did anything—there was no marketing for probably the first four years of my business. And because I literally didn’t have time to take on any other clients. So—

Boundaries, that’s important.

Exactly. And it was a slow journey of ironclad boundaries. That is, as fast as my business grew, was as fast as the kids grew.

Ah, look at that nice analogy there, that you’re following the kids’ path. So you said first year, one client. So when did the next client come on and how did you fit them in? Did you get more hours with the kids at school more? How did the next client come into play?

I did—the next, you know, every year, as we know, every year the kids, especially in preschool, they go to school for a little bit more, versus it’s two-day-a-week preschool, then it’s three-day-a-week. So I was just gaining these incremental hours and I was also learning how to do things faster once I learned the software I was using. You know, QuickBooks, once you learn how to use it, you do things faster. Everything takes three times as long when you don’t know where the buttons are. And so as I got more efficient and the kids got older, I just started opening up pockets of time and somebody heard about me by word of mouth—I had mentioned it in a casual, friendly conversation. And of course, you know how these things happen. Like, “Oh, well so-and-so needs somebody like you.” And that was my second client. 

And ironically, at the same time as that second client, we had decided to move across the country from the Chicago suburbs to Idaho. And I had assumed, I was like, well, I guess I’ll just lose my clients because I’m not there. And so, I told my client, I said, “Hey, I’m moving.” Mind you, you’ll think this is funny now, it was 2019, and I said, “Hey, I’m moving out of the state, so I guess this is going to have to change.” She said, “Why? Isn’t everything in the cloud now?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, I’m happy to do it on the other side of the country, but I didn’t know if you’d be okay with that.” And I was like, “We can do Zoom meetings. Have you ever heard of Zoom meetings?” And she was like, “Yeah, I guess we could do that.” And so, as we all know, nine months later, yes, the world turned upside down and we were all doing that.

So then the first client was a Tae Kwon Do…studio?

Studio? Dojo? 

I was going to say Dojo because I’ve been watching, what’s it called? “Cobra Kai” is in the dojo all the time. Even though I know that’s not Tae Kwon Do. At least I don’t think it is. Was your second client then in a similar industry?

No. 

No. So this was—you were branching out into something new then?

Yeah, I had never heard of niching. I didn’t know niche was a thing.

Yeah, that’s what I was getting at.

I didn’t know anything. I was not a serial entrepreneur. I never thought I’d own my own firm. Actually, when I left corporate, my boss, who I gave my resignation to, told me, “You should start your own accounting firm.” And I told him that was the dumbest idea I had ever heard. And I tell him that now. We laugh about that now—I’m still friends with him. And I was like, “That was not the dumbest idea you had ever said.” So, yeah, it was just, I was taking whatever clients needed help because what did I know? I literally didn’t know any better.

And everybody does that. Most firms, when they start out, do that. I’m seeing a lot of—

And I think it’s a great way to start. You don’t know what you like until you see a little bit of everything.

And you mentioned niche earlier then, and that’s kind of what I was getting at. When you’re adding clients, I know at this point you now have niched. Was it a specific client you looked at and you said, “Oh, I love working on this kind of client,” or how did you develop a niche?

I would give all of the credit to Geraldine Carter. 

Oh yeah?

Yeah. I started working with Geraldine Carter when I realized this is what I was going to do. Like, I was going to have an accounting firm and I was not dabbling anymore, I was actually going to do this. And then I was so afraid to do it wrong and to build it the wrong way, because again, I just lived in fear of burnout at that point. And so I just worked with her. She’s great. She helped me figure out my niche, like, she’s not going to tell you your niche, but she helped me go through that process. She helped me with my pricing. She really put me in the right direction. It was really good to have somebody on your side pointing you in the right direction when I just had no exposure to owning a firm.

Geraldine’s great. I’ve been—she’s been on this podcast a couple times. I think I’ve been on her podcast a couple times. She spoke at our conference, Bridging the Gap, in the past. She’s just one of my favorites. She’s so good at what she does. And so then when you’re working with her then, she helped you find your niche. What is that niche?

So it is consultants, and I would say agency owners, so anybody in the service-based industry, and it doesn’t necessarily land in a specific industry. We say it’s people who are selling their very smart brains, and that could be IT, that could be communications, marketing. I have some really interesting consultants that do things that you would never guess that there are consultants for—weird industries. And so it’s just somebody who tends to do service-based, high price ticket items. They might start out as a solo entrepreneur, they might grow into a team. And just navigating with them through those changes in business ownership. And I do a lot of cash flow planning for them. I have an FP&A background—that’s what I did in corporate—and so I actually thought I’d never use that again in firm ownership. And then I realized you could just scale it down, and every business owner needs that.

Yep. When you were saying this about the niche that you’re working on, I started thinking it sounds like your practice—I mean, you could be your own client based on the type of client you’re working with. You think that plays into why you like that you see what you’re doing and how you’re doing it, and you can equate to what they’re doing?

Yeah, I think that’s kind of come together. I don’t know that I started out with that in mind, but I think it’s definitely like, it’s a personality that is a certain personality and we jive together, and I think it’s important that your financial professional, whoever that may be, is somebody who “gets” you. Like I will always say, I’m not going to work with VC-backed startups because they move at a speed that is different than the speed I move at, and we will frustrate the heck out of each other. And there are amazing fractional CFOs and accountants who can work with VC-backed firms, and they should, but there are also solo entrepreneurs who are a little more interested in a balance between life and business, and they would love to work with somebody who gets that. And I feel like that’s where we become really aligned.

Okay. Well that makes sense. And I also actually think it makes sense from a standpoint that you mentioned that they are, you know, high earners. I don’t know if you said it that way, but, you know, billing probably a significant dollar per hour. And so I want to get into the 15 hour, but we’re building up to that. So right now then, to get to the $200K+ at 15 hours a week, obviously there’s a certain per hour fee that you need to average even though you don’t bill by the hour—I don’t think you do. And so did pricing come into play because you knew how many hours you were working a week or did hours come into play because of the pricing? Or how did you come up with—because I know you have like a three-tier pricing model, so why don’t you explain your pricing and how you came up with that?

Yeah. I have three tiers of pricing, and I would say they’re constantly in flux. Like what you would read in the book is, especially in literally today’s economy of 2025, is constantly in flux and just always trying to match what my target market needs. But I have a top tier that’s kind of a bookkeeping to fractional CFO, soup to nuts, everything in there. I don’t do tax returns, so that’s not included in there, and my clients are well aware of that when they sit down with me. And that’s priced in like the $5,000 range. There’s a lower tier for smaller companies in the $1,500 a month range, and then I have like an intro pricing at about $600 where it’s just bookkeeping, and I’m in your pocket, you ask me whatever questions you have over email.

Okay. Now, let’s get to the 15 hours. So we got pricing. Actually, let’s go into marketing before we get to the 15 hours, because you said it’s a very slow growth process, probably not even, I’m assuming, taking on clients at this point. Are you where you want to be or are you looking for more clients?

I’m at capacity, but I have clients changing, like I’m constantly changing. So yeah, there’s always like, I will never not talk to somebody, because you never know what’s going to happen with a client.

Right. And so from a marketing standpoint then, is it intentional or is it word of mouth—just, hey, somebody hears about you, is it local community? What do you do when you’re looking for a new client?

It’s funny, when I wrote the book, I had never taken a step back and really assessed what was the origin story of each of the clients, because I have a podcast that’s directed towards my target market, I have a newsletter, like I do the things that people say you’re supposed to do, and then when I take a step back and see where are actually my clients who make it through the door, make it onboarded, stay for a while, you know, like we’re through and through, those people come from referrals, they come from word of mouth. I think that’s true for so many accountants. Like I think people say you don’t want to rely on referrals, but at the end of the day, it’s such an industry where the person matters, and having a friend tell you that they trust somebody else, matters. 

Yeah, I think referrals is good, but you have to put yourself out there as well so they know it and even with the podcast, obviously that’s, yeah, that’s part of it.

I always say people can always go ahead and stalk me. If they hear my name and then they want to see who I actually am and what I actually think, there’s a load of content out there. They can decide if they like me or hate me before they even talk to me,which is great. It saves us both time. If they hate me, then we’ve all saved time.

It could be—so right now then, ten clients, correct?

Uh, yeah. We’re at about 11, yeah.

11 clients. And then at, you know, 22, 50, whatever. I know in the book you said it was you, over $200,000 in revenue on an annual basis, whatever it was. You’re looking at what, 20-something thousand per client per year? If my math is right.

Yeah, if you did a straight average, yes. But I have some clients in that highest tier, $5,000, and that lowest tier. And so it really just—it’s an interesting mix of, you know, $60,000 clients per year and, you know, $6,000 clients per year.

Okay. And so, and again, the three tiers then, so it varies on the service level they get. So you spend more time on the $60,000 than you do on the $6,000 obviously. But let’s get into time then. So this is where, you know, I said at the beginning, my first thought was, “Okay, yeah, sure, it’s 15 hours a week.” I’ve read the book and I see what you’re doing. But why don’t you explain what your work week looks like and how you work with clients.

Yeah. So I have a set schedule every week. I work Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and I work nine to three because that’s when the kids are at school, and I also have an hour of buffer on each side so I can be a sane mom when they get home. So it’s nine to three, and then I take an hour lunch away from my desk. And so I work five hours, three days a week. We get up to 15 hours. I take Wednesdays off, where I do errands, things that, you know, or it’s a buffer day for a sick kid that might crop up, and then Fridays, uniquely, our entire family has three-day weekends every week. Our public school doesn’t have school on Friday.

Really? Wow.

Yeah. It’s a whole other podcast, but the whole family is off on Friday. And so that’s the start of our weekend.

Alright. So wait, do you get the—is there a lot of three-day camping trips or anything that happens on these three-day weekends?

Yes. There is a lot of heading out of town on Friday mornings. Oh, wow. That’s pretty cool. Alright, I’m going to start doing it. Although my schedule, I don’t even know what I do, but actually I was supposed to go camping tomorrow, but it’s going to rain here, so we decided we’re not going to go camping, which is fine. And so, from a client standpoint, obviously we mentioned boundaries earlier: You have to educate them on this is the schedule, this is how we communicate to each other. Is the communication style email, do you give out your cell phone number? Do they know they cannot contact you on Wednesday or Friday, or at least you won’t respond? How does that boundaries and communication work with your clients?

That’s a good question. I don’t get that question very often. None of my clients—maybe not none—if they have my phone number, they don’t know they have it. I work with people who are okay with email and Zoom meetings. If they want to have a live conversation, we set up a Zoom meeting. So it’s almost always over email until we have our monthly meeting, or we might have a scheduled Zoom meeting. So nobody’s calling me, nobody’s texting me. I never thought of this: I don’t actually communicate my schedule with my clients. I think we live in this world where we assume emails have to be answered within six hours, or like, email you in 24 hours. I don’t know. We’ve grown up in this corporate culture where, like, how could you possibly not respond to an email in half a day? And I don’t work with people who expect that. My client—maybe, and this goes back to, like, I don’t work with VC founders. I don’t, because I don’t work in an industry where somebody is expecting that. There’s an immense amount of respect for time and boundaries, and so, you know, for example, on Wednesdays when I don’t work, I’ll check my email on Tuesday night, like Tuesday before I leave the office, and then I will check it again on Thursday morning and nobody has ever died on a Wednesday from me not emailing back. It’s a miracle. 

I mean, accounting is not a life and death situation normally.

No. It turns out it’s not.

Alright, well, that’s good. And it’s good that you don’t even have to communicate that to your clients. It’s just the way it is because that’s a trap I fell into. Too many clients had my cell phone and still, I give out my cell phone all the time and I always wonder why, but I don’t really do any work. So it’s just, I just like to hear from people, I guess, that, you know, this is not work. I get to talk to cool people like you.

And I’m a normal, good human. Like—

Yeah.

If crap’s hitting the fan and I know something’s going on, like, I will go on my email on a Friday and make sure everybody is okay, you don’t need anything from me, but those instances are rare. Those are not an every week thing that’s happening.

So you didn’t have to go out of the way to set boundaries. That was not something—you didn’t have to control clients. Do you ever run into a situation with clients that just say, “Hey, sorry, I’m not going to be responding to you on a Friday”? That just doesn’t even come up?

Yeah. I’ve never had a client yell at me for it.

Nice. Well, you got good clients then too.

And I think we think the clients are going to yell at us for it, right?

Yeah, no, that’s probably a mindset that we put on ourselves. Like you said, we’ve lived in a society or in a profession where we just feel like we have to get back to everybody immediately, and we’re putting all this undue pressure on ourselves that doesn’t exist. We make it up. And so I think that you’re living a nice, peaceful existence in your firm.

I also think if you find yourself with a client like that, and it’s an anomaly, it’s okay to say, “My firm can’t support you in the way you need to be supported. Here’s my 30-day notice.” Like, all of my contracts have 30-day notice.  ither one of us can get out of them in 30 days, and it’s okay to let clients go. It’s okay to take a revenue hit for the sake of your sanity, literally.

Yeah. I love that. So many of my friends in the profession do that. I have a good friend who—we were supposed to record a podcast yesterday. We unfortunately postponed it to next week, but Diana Crawford, and I love her saying—she has a saying that, you know, she’ll often “invite clients to be successful elsewhere.” So I’ve quoted her many times, but she’s great and another good friend, as long as I’m saying friends, Al-Nesha Jones, good friend of mine. You know, she’s really good at setting boundaries, and she takes every Friday off, and her whole firm is made up of working mothers, and it’s just—the boundary setting is so important in what she’s done. So I’m on a tangent—I get so excited, I just go all over the place. Let’s pull back to your business because I think there’s so much people can learn, just the calmness that you have on running a business and the boundaries you’ve set as well, and the hours that you’ve set and yes, oh sure. Maybe occasionally I’ll do a little bit here or there if somebody needs it, but no, and I heard you talk somewhere else. You say 15 hours and you probably average a little less than 15. Is that true?

Yeah. 

Which is good. So should we talk about systems a little? Maybe we should, because you said you went into this with, you know, helping somebody with QuickBooks who you’d never seen before. Obviously at this point, I’m guessing you’re pretty good with QuickBooks. You’ve mentioned that. 

I learned it, yes. 

Yes. How about other—are you very tech heavy? Are you tech soft? I mean, how does technology play into how you run your practice?

I try to be tech smart. Like, I don’t want every app because I think there can be inefficiencies in tech when you have everything connected. But I’ve always tried to be really smart about what do I need to have 10 to 12 clients? Because I think there’s a lot of tech out there built for 20-plus clients, 100 clients, and there’s amazing platforms out there and apps that help people run massive firms or even just, you know, more than a solo firm. Which I think is great. And I think oftentimes those don’t serve me in the same efficiency because I actually don’t need all of that. And I’m really careful on, like, where can a spreadsheet serve me? Where does an app need to come in? So, for example, that first client, I went through the pandemic with that client and they’re, as you can imagine, a brick-and-mortar, very in-person business, just got hammered right away. And I have, like I said, an FP&A background, and I wasn’t yet providing cashflow forecasting for them because I didn’t see the value yet, until the pandemic hit. And I could very clearly see what was going to happen to their business and they as business owners had blissful optimism that everything was going to be okay in two weeks when the world turned back on, and it didn’t, right? Like, two weeks went on for two years almost.

And so that’s when I started doing cashflow forecasting and I started in a spreadsheet because that was all I knew. And I didn’t even know if the client would like it, and I didn’t know if it was going to be helpful, and it wound up being extremely helpful, and I rolled it out to my next client and my next client. But I was doing it all in Excel, which is good for a degree, but when you think about scaling, that’s the time where I’m like, oh gosh, I need to bring something in because I now know this will make me more efficient if I layer an app on that. So I use Fathom now. That was just what was around, you know, five years ago and what I really like using now—actually, I really love it—but it’s kind of that balance of where does tech make sense and where is tech noise? And I just try to be really smart about introducing things that I can really show are going to save me time. And I’m diligent about tracking my time so I’m really clear on what processes take time and which ones don’t, and so I’ll always focus on the ones where I think I can make a heavy lift with a tech app.

Alright, that’s good. And let’s talk about that time, because you just mentioned this and I forgot about this, but you are very—from reading it and hearing you—actually, I heard you on Blake Oliver’s podcast as well. You track your time. You are one person, you’re working 15 hours a week, you don’t bill by the hour, but you’re very diligent about tracking your time. Why?

I mean, there’s probably something wrong with my brain if we’re being honest. I don’t know. I can’t even remember how it started. You know, I think it started because I wanted the accountability because I was so committed to working in my boundaries that I needed—I’m a person who, I’m like, if I write it down, it’ll happen, and so that felt like a form of accountability to me. And what came out of it was actually really helpful because then I had all of this data of where I spent my time and I could easily run pivot tables on it to figure out, like, well, what processes are taking me longer and what clients are taking me longer, and I could take a step back—and we always say, work on our business, not in our business—I could take a step back and say, gosh, this process is really slow for me. It’s really bogging me down, so if I’m going to commit time to make something better, let’s commit time to making that process better so that all of my clients get faster.

Yeah. Alright. So I can see that. So you’ve used it in the efficiencies of the 15-hour work week. Okay. I will accept that. 

I do. I know it’s a divisive topic. I know everybody’s—there are people who would adamantly say, don’t, absolutely never track your time. It’s going to hurt you so much mentally. And I get it. Do whatever works for you, but this is what’s worked for me.

So how much time do you spend tracking time?

It’s a spreadsheet. Literally do it in a spreadsheet. It’s always open. It takes, you know, half a second to plug in the number.

Okay. Alright. That was always my argument. How much time are we spending tracking time that we could be more productive on? But you’ve got it down to a system. Now, I know in the past, in the book and other places you’ve shared insights about the accounting profession being built for a time when most executives had stay-at-home spouses. So what do you think needs to change in today’s work environment to better support professionals and parents?

Oh, Randy, I think it needs to change across the—

You said it!

I did. And I’ll stand by it. This is no secret, right? 

No, I agree.

Sixty, eighty years ago, so much of America specifically was built on a stay-at-home mom—it wasn’t even a stay-at-home parent, it was a stay-at-home mom—and it was a full-time working dad who brought in all of the income. I alluded to this before that I was raised in the 80s and 90s where you told little girls they could be anything because they could. And they can be. And that’s amazing. So we all grew up being like, I can do anything, I can, you know, Barbies wearing every costume. I could be an astronaut. Which is phenomenal. And we should tell little girls that. But then we put them into a corporate work environment that was built on a stay-at-home mom and a working dad. And who is left with the kids? And we’re not fully sure, like, is it daycare, is it a nanny? Is it very expensive? And either way, is dad still solely focused on work because that’s what culture has said for the past hundred years? I think we’re at this really interesting juncture in history where women and men are trying to do the same thing on a playing field that was only built for one of them. And I think also, I’m going to say it, and this is going to—it might be unpopular—I think men get the shaft in this too. 

Really?

I think there is an immense amount of pressure put on men because they’re supposed to be the breadwinners. They’re supposed to be the providers. And the amount of pressure that I see middle-aged men take on from being the burden holders of the family is, I think, something that’s not talked about, and it has extreme ramifications that we don’t need to go into here, but I think it should change for everybody.

Yeah, that’s—I can see that. And what you just said brought up a point in my head is, you know, I did a survey with a few other people last year on the satisfaction levels within the accounting profession. And what we found is that the—you just mentioned middle-aged men—middle-aged, middle of your career is where the least satisfaction developed. I mean, like, the lowest satisfactions were there. We did not break that up by men and women. We are going to do our new—you know what, I bet we did ask that question. I could look back and see, because I’d be curious to see if there’s a difference in those satisfaction levels between the men and women in the middle of their career, just because now it sounds intriguing to me based on what you said, so I’d like to find that out. So I’m going to see if we can—we’re just about to roll out year two of that survey, so I’m going to see if maybe we can dial in that data a little more, because there’s probably some additional information we can find out there. Man, look at you giving me great ideas. Well, ideas. They’re great on your end. I don’t know if mine—we’ll see if it’s a great idea. 

Alright, let’s—I like the insights. I had to ask that because I saw that, that was—I’ve heard you talk about that before, but those are very good insights. Now let’s just talk about people who are going to aspire to be you. Because I think it’s a very inspiring thing that you’ve done. And actually, if we go backwards, what you just talked about is this, you know, the men and women and the way the workforce was defined and the accounting profession still maybe acting that way even though times have changed. But you’ve actually developed a firm where it does allow you to be a mom and take care of the kids at the same time as generating a very nice revenue. So I guess if you look at it one way, you’re kind of still following what we said those old rules are. Am I way off base there?

No, I think that’s such a great assessment. Like, yes, I was in a culture that did not work for me. We had two full-time working parents with similar roles, and it felt like everybody was ignoring the fact that we were also trying to raise small humans and keep them in the best place we could. And like, how dare we want to have dinner on the table by 6:00 PM? You know, like, just this concept where we’re like, but that sounds so obvious. And we’re like, but you need to be at the office until 6:30, so we’ll just ignore the fact that your family needs to eat together, which was always something really important to me. I digress.

Oh, me too. I agree with that completely. Our family, me growing up, we always ate meals together and my wife and I with our kids, that’s always—and actually our kids come over quite often and have meals with us still. In fact, that’s happening Friday this week, and Sunday this week, and Monday this week. We’re doing it this next week. So, yeah, that’s—I agree with that. 

Amazing. Well, so yeah, that’s a great exhibit of, like, I was in an environment that literally wasn’t working for me and I didn’t have a hundred years to wait around for the culture to change. I don’t doubt that it will—like, I’m not so negative Nancy about this, that I don’t doubt things will change, albeit slowly. As new generations take over, things will change. This is how society works, but I didn’t have that time and so I needed to decide to remove myself from the situation that was not built for me and I built something that did work for me.

Which is perfect. So now let’s go back to what I was saying, somebody that you have inspired and aspires to be you or to do what you did: Let’s say they want to start a firm—well, two different questions. They want to start it. What’s the first thing they should do? Or they have an existing firm. What’s a small change they can start to make, to start to dial back the hours and dial in the right clients?

Yeah. So I’m going to start off with something that’s probably going to sound a little wooey. Like, first start with knowing what you’re chasing, because it’s really easy to hear noise in social media, on articles, on podcasts that is like, “We’re going to chase growth. Here’s what we’re going to teach you how to hire. Here’s like”—and they’re going to tell you what you should be chasing. And I think it’s really important to turn off the noise and to go within yourself to know “What is it that I’m chasing? Am I chasing eating dinner as a family together every night?” Like, it doesn’t matter what it is, it’s just like, know what you’re chasing, then build around that, because there’s amazing resources out there for getting clients and marketing and niching and all of that. Like, that is not a lack of, but make sure that you’re chasing those things with the foundation of, “and here’s my end goal and here’s what success looks like to me, and here’s what good feels like in my life.” Maybe it’s not 15 hours, maybe it’s not 11 clients, maybe it’s 30 hours and whatever. Don’t chase me, chase what’s inside you.

Yep. That’s good. And I’m going to quote another good friend of mine, Dawn Brolin, who talks about things like this. And her goal is not to work over 35 hours a week. I think she’s actually even dropped that now to less. But Dawn’s an amazing person to be inspired by as well. You know, she wants to be out golfing, you know, three days a week or four days a week. And so that’s what she does, that’s what she’s chasing. Her kids are grown now. But she does that. So, yeah, I like that. Determine what you want, what you’re chasing, what’s important to you. Dinner is important to you, let’s build that into this practice. Okay. I think that was a great answer. I think you’re amazing. This is great. 

We’re going to have to wrap up because we’re at a lot longer than I was saying we would go, but I knew we’d have a fun conversation. Alright, so this next question—this is an important thing for me. You know, we just talked about the amazing firm that you built, the amazing lifestyle you’ve built with—maybe you built a lifestyle firm. Is that what it’s called? I don’t even know, but the—

I know that gets some flack on social media when you say that.

Oh, really? I have no idea.

People get so grumpy. I’m like, can we all just not?

I don’t even look at the grumpiness, if there’s grumpiness, I just turn it off. But this firm allows you to have a life, at least we’ll say it that way. And so what do you do with that life? What are your passions outside of work, which is most of the time, you know, what do you enjoy doing for fun?

I love being—I mean, we live in such a beautiful part of the country—I love being outside. We live about a mile off of 2 million acres of national forest.

Oh, that’s nice.

It’s incredible. And so literally I can just, you know, drive down the street and start walking into the woods and just be in nature. I love it. I love national parks. Our family has a camper and we do lots of weekend trips.

We have a camper as well, yep.

Yeah, so we did that when we moved out here when the pandemic hit, as everybody else probably bought a camper too. But we live in just a location where we can get to so many beautiful places. I really love being outside. I also really love being at home. I love routine. I love the life we’ve built. We’ve got chickens in the backyard. Somebody else would look at me and roll their eyes, but I love it. I don’t care. You roll all the eyes you want.

Well, we—this house that my wife and I moved to six, seven months ago feels like we’re out in the middle of nowhere, even though we’re still in the Chicago suburbs, but our neighbor behind us—which we can’t see anybody’s houses even though we’re on like an acre and a half, and there’s trees in between us—but one over, also have chickens in their backyard. So we hear them in the morning and it actually feels kind of peaceful to hear them out there. 

So, alright, well I think that’ll wrap it up. I just love hearing about all the cool things people are doing out there in the profession, and this is one of the coolest stories that I’ve got to listen to. So I really want to thank you for being on the show and sharing your journey with us.

Thanks so much for having me, Randy. I really do enjoy your podcast. Personally, I listen to it, so it’s just a pleasure to be on it.

Wow, now I’m in awe. I have a listener! That’s pretty cool. Well, thank you so much.