Today, our guest is John Fenton. John has a long history in public accounting. He’s now out actually helping leaders in a bunch of industries, but public accounting for sure, be more successful in the leadership. John, welcome to The Unique CPA. 

Hey, Randy, thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be with you today. 

Yeah. I’m glad we’re getting this done ’cause we’ve tried a few times, a few false starts, but today we’re gonna get it in 

It’s all good. It’s all good. 

I’m looking forward to it. I’ve been able to watch you a little bit online, see things you’re doing. It’s pretty exciting. But why don’t you give us all a little background on, you know, I’d mentioned you’ve been, you were in public accounting quite a while with a large firm and now you’ve transformed into this new career. Why don’t you give us a little background on that overall journey? 

Yeah, sure. I’ll try to keep this succinct. Let me know if I’m going over too much, but, my life has been filled with transformations actually. So, but I was a managing partner at BDO USA and I worked in actually four different cities with that firm over my career and the last being Atlanta, Georgia. And we’ve lived in Georgia now since 2002 and really, the timing was perfect for me because we were going through a great transformation at that time as a firm and really helped to lead the charge. We were a top 10 office. Really just transformed the business in terms of our client base and as well as the people on our team and really worked hard at that. And I was always really focused on the marketing aspect of the business as well. And it’s kind of how I grew up through, I came up through the ranks was I really focused on marketing because, certainly have to get technical skills, but I really focused on that area. And so it was really driven to grow the business the right way. And we really worked hard to do that and had some great partners that helped along the way there. 

But prior to all that, I was actually a collegiate athlete. I played college football at a very high level, University of Miami Hurricanes, and I was on a championship team. 

I was going to ask  that. I knew you played there. I was wondering if there was championships around that. 

Well, it was a Peach Bowl championship, not a national championship. 

That’s alright!

But we had a, I played for Howard Stoneberger. I had three different head coaches while I was in college, which was really, that’s a whole nother learning experience, right? But I played for Howard Stoneberger for my last two years and my last year, which I was redshirted one year. So it actually was, got my accounting degree. in four years and was working on my MBA that fifth year and completed my MBA that year, 1980 season. And we played in the Peach Bowl and won, so we finished 18th in the country and, had a nice nine win season. That was really great. Played with Jim Kelly and a lot of the greats that went on to the NFL and coached, some coaches, Mark Richt was one of our teammates and he’s a prolific coach on the ACC Network. And so, some great experiences there in that whole process. I grew up in the Miami area and I just really decided to stay closer to home. I was actually highly recruited outta high school. I was fortunate to be at a state championship team. 

But prior to all that, I was the kid growing up that was not—the antithesis of athletic, okay? I didn’t play any football until I got to high school. And so I transformed myself into an athlete and it just, Ireally wanted to play basketball. Football really just, I seemed to do better at football for some reason. And I was a lineman, so I guess throw my body in people’s way basically, right? But it was a great experience, great learning experience. And it was interesting. I’ve always been a kind of reflective kind of guy, so I was always kind of, what made some teams great, some teams were terrible, and I was on both. I mean I experienced both. I mean I was on 3-8 football teams, and an 18th ranked team in the country. And then two, three years later, we had a national championship team. And a lot of the guys that were on that team were freshmen my last year at Miami. You know, what makes a team great? And that’s really been something that’s always driven me personally is understanding that and applying that to the business world. And so I was always looking at leadership lessons from those things. 

So sports was a great way to obviously get into that and to learn that and understand that and challenge myself in many ways. Overcoming a lot of obstacles. And so a lot of what I talk about nowadays, and what I help leaders with is overcoming obstacles, having more clarity, and really kind of quieting down. We talked, you and I were talking earlier about kind of quieting, slow things down. That’s so important. Along the way in my career, I discovered Tai Chi, which really helped me a lot because I was able to really focus on mindfulness practices. I became a black belt in Tai Chi. It took me about a year and a half, and I just fell in love with the rigor and the discipline of it. And it’s a noncombative martial art for those who don’t know about Tai Chi, but a lot of meditation and a lot of, you know, really connecting with your body and focusing on your health, your physical health, mental health, spiritual health, and emotional health. And that helped me to be a better, not only a better leader, but a better human being.

And I applied that in my leadership role in the firm and in business. And I’ve continued to carry that. It’s a foundational aspect of how I work with CEOs and managing partners. And I do, I can work with people in different industries, but I really have been focusing on the accounting profession for the last three or four years, which makes a whole lot of sense since I came out of that profession. I actually, you know, I’ve retired 10 years ago, which is amazing, right? And I kind of meandered in my career, figuring out what I was going to do as a coach and a leader and had some great experiences with Vistage as a Vistage coach, training from that. And then also Jack Canfield, Success Principles coach, got certified there in that and applying my 30 plus years in the accounting profession, and then 10 years since then, working with accountants and CPAs in various ways, helping them be the best they can be, and I’m having the time of my life.

I mean, I’m just so happy to be here. I’m glad we met. We met at the Accounting Today Firm Growth Forum back in May. It was a great event and I enjoyed meeting you there and meeting some other folks there. Just want to really just continue to deep dive into the profession and help CPAs be the best they can be and have the best life that they can have. 

Yep. I agree. I think you and I kind of have same mindsets around that. It’s a great profession. It’s done a lot for me and, but I see things that can be improved. I’m no expert, but at least I know there’s always things we can be better at. And if we can be out there and educate in some level to help, I think that’s well worth it. 

You know, it’s an amazing time really in the profession. I mean, there’s been people talking about some of the things we’re applying now, we’ve been talking about for probably 20 plus years. How do we value our work? How do we value the services we provide? How do we relate to our customers? What kind of firm do we want to have? You know, what’s the future hold? Like, what does the future hold? I mean, what kind of legacy do we want to leave in our firms? And there’s so much, you know, there’s so much going on in the industry right now. A lot of disruption. I think the pandemic accelerated a lot of that for a lot of businesses, and particularly in the accounting profession. 

You know, we always had, for a long time, we had the capability for remote work, but nobody really wanted to, it was used infrequently, right? And sometimes, you know, you have the right personality to have someone to actually be remote and actually do the work and get the job done, and so a lot of times we just stayed away from it for the most part. And I think technology was there already for us to do that. And so now there’s a real sea change going on in the industry. 

For sure. I think there’s still a fear of remote work from leadership. I don’t know. You’re the one out dealing with leaders. But when I talk to people, I see that at least at the larger firms more so. Although that being said, I was just talking with a woman who’s a VP at Sikich, VP of Corporate Culture, I think is her title. And we were talking about remote work, and Sikich is what, top 25 CPA firm, I think. 74 percent of their employees are remote workers. I was like, wow, that’s amazing. And so I think, I don’t know, it feels like it’s like, well, how can I control things if I can’t see people? And I think that in my mind is a mindset that you have to get rid of. I don’t know if you have thoughts on that. 

I do. I do. I have a couple of clients that they’re hybrid, right? They have a combination of some people remote, some in the office and some combination. And I think what my thoughts are around that is you really need to be intentional about, I think rethink management and leadership with those people in those remote locations. And there’s a way to do that. And I think one of the ways I’ve, you know, I’m constantly reading and getting information from other firms and just reading industry newsletters and things and truly trying to stay plugged in McKinsey reports and some of the bigger firm Deloitte reports and things of that nature. My opinion is the way to tackle this would be more intentional about how we handle remote work, how we think about it to make sure people are getting the job done. And there’s ways to do that. But also connecting with people. 

For me, the biggest issue is really about engagement, employee engagement. And that’s so important. And there’s all kinds of reports and data about how the engagement has waned. It was improved during the pandemic. Then it went down again. And I mean, the bottom line is people want to know that they can contribute to a firm, that they have a place in the firm and that people value them as human beings. And so I was giving, I was in a retreat, last month with a client, for their next gen leaders. And one of the things came up about engagement, it’s a very issue, it’s a very topic. And I said, you know what, if you want to have higher levels of engagement with your staff and your employees, you’ve got to engage with them, take the lead. It’s like anything else. If you want people to respect you, you’ve got to respect them, engage with them, give them more challenging opportunities. 

I mean, one of the things I always, and I share with a group, one of the things I’ll never forget, I just joined BDO. I started my career with Arthur Andersen long before all the issues came up later on, and joined BDO in the Houston office. And, you know, I was a new kid on the block. I was a semi senior. What does that even mean? Right. I was a semi senior, came on board there. And so I was in the office cause they didn’t have any assignments for me yet, right? It was a couple of weeks in the office. And one of the managing partner came to me and said, Hey, take a look at this projection I’m doing for this cattle ranch, you know, I had no idea what even, what was even entailing running a cattle ranch, but I took a look at it and I spent some time with it. And I came back with a couple of suggestions and the look on his face was like, Oh, I didn’t think about that. 

So it just made me feel like I was, you know, somebody valued, I actually contributed something, right? Look, I’m a baby boomer, right? So people talk about the different, you know, the different generations and X, Y, Z, whatever. The bottom line is, I think my grandson’s two and a half. He’s, Alpha, I think he’s Alpha generation. 

I didn’t even know that existed. 

Yeah, exactly, exactly. The Alpha generation. But they just want to know that somebody cares about them and they can contribute, right? You’re always going to have outliers. There’s always going to be somebody in your firm that doesn’t want to really get the job done, who’s not really engaged, probably will never be engaged. And you probably, gut check, you can probably know who they are, whether remote or not. You can kind of tell, I think. I mean, I felt like I had a, one of my, I think one of my strengths was being able to kind of read people sometimes and kind of understand where they were and kind of project them into the next levels or future levels. And I was pretty good about that. Not always a hundred percent, right? But I think just knowing your people, getting to know them as best you can, creating ways for them to connect with each other virtually, you can still do that virtually. But also have that face to face in real time, person to person. I love that. I love going to companies and leading a two day retreat or a mini retreat for one day, live and in person, because there’s so much more that happens in that room as opposed to being virtual. But we talked about that a moment ago. 

But you know, the human interaction is so important and relationships are so important. One of my mantras is. Whatever business you’re in, if you’re in the accounting business, you’re in a relationship business, relationships with your clients, relationships with your employees, your partners, your vendors, the community, you’re in the relationship business. And if you really think about it, if you think about the people that made the most impact, I know people made the most impact in my life, in my career, in sports and in business were the, not so much, hey, that person, you know, had a great book of business and they, you know, hit out of the park, whatever it was, the relationships and the interaction and being able to actually talk to somebody as a real human being and have a real conversation.

Yep. I agree. And I think I’ve said this on the show before, but I mean, what you’re saying is the way we look at our business, you know, the people are the most important thing that we all, you know, have value to give, you know, I, over the years have become a very good delegator. I wasn’t early in my career. I am now to the point where I don’t really do anything that I don’t want to do, or I’m not good at because there’s no reason for me to do it. 

There’s no reason!

Yeah. But the one cool, and what I was going to say, and I think I’ve said this on the show before, one of the biggest compliments I ever got was, well, let me set the stage. Our business is remote. For the most part, our people are remote. We have an office in the Chicago suburbs. Sometimes people are there, sometimes they’re not. We have small offices around the country. But really from day one, we were a remote business. 

We get together twice a year as a company, like you just said, that face to face is so important. We celebrate who people are outside of work, you’re the project manager. Great. But no, you’re the mountain biker or whatever, and so we celebrate that and we allow people to share that. And here’s the, I’m going to try to shorten my story, but here’s one of the greatest compliments I ever received, and I think I’ve said this on the show before and there wasn’t even somebody that wasn’t talking to me. They were, we had last November company meeting out in San Diego. We had a photographer there, you know, taking pictures and headshots, but just action shots and everything, two of us getting together.

And this photographer does this all the time. And he said to somebody I work with, he told her, you know what? I’m out there, I’m working these corporate events all the time, I’m taking these pictures. This is the first time I cannot tell who the partners of this firm are. And I thought, okay. That’s pretty cool. We’re all the same level. We’re all important. We’re all valued and we’re not a clique. You know, it’s not somebody standing over here and someone standing over there. Everybody was part of it. So that’s my, sorry, this is your, the guest, not me today, but…

It’s okay, I mean it’s your show!

…just to kind of reiterate what you said or to show how important it is, the value in the people you work with is extremely important, especially in a remote culture.

Yeah, you know, I talked earlier, about some of the things that I’m seeing in the industry and the people I’m working with, one of the couple of issues that I see is one, trust is a big issue. And really remote things about trust and level of trust, really. And a lot of times I’ll ask, I had a 3 hour presentation to a senior executive team about four years ago, and I said, okay, and the meeting was going really well on about halfway through, I took a chance and I said, on a scale of one to ten , how would you rate the level of trust? And the CEO was in the room. There’s just seven senior execs, including the CEO. I had them write it down and I said, and then I asked them to report, okay. What was your number? Right in front of the CEO. Everybody was like a five, four or five or six in that range. 

Okay. 

The CEO was a nine of course, because we have these biases, right? Especially the CEO. Like everything’s great, everything’s rosy. I asked that question recently of a new client managing partner and CEO, and I asked him and he was very honest about, probably about a six, and I said, great. So that gives us a launching off point, but it’s the next question is what’s really most valuable. So if it’s not a 10, it’s kind of like a net promoter score almost, if it’s not a 10, what would make it a 10? 

Right. 

No matter what the number is, if it’s a 9, what would make it a 10? That’s where the real conversation begins. That’s where the real insights. And so, you know, people sometimes will sit on their hands and kind of, you know, hold back and that kind of thing. But I have a way in my workshops and seminars and retreats of creating an environment where people feel comfortable allowing themselves to be a little bit more vulnerable and sharing more to really add to the conversation.

Yep. I think vulnerability is huge in leadership. That’s one of the biggest things. Transparency is something that I think helps build trust as well. And then, empathy. I mean, you know, as well, you have to understand what people are dealing with and not just decide. 

Empathy, and compassion for sure. And it’s why I say meeting them where they’re at. Meet them where they’re at and just try to, you know, have a real conversation with them. I have a little tool that I give to my clients, I call it the engagement accelerator. It’s a little two page kind of cheat sheet and it allows people to really kind of frame up a conversation because we don’t like conflict, right? We don’t. One of my clients at even the board of partner level, there was an internal conflict that had been brewing and I got a call from the CEO and she’s like, John, you got to help me. I don’t know what to do. And we talked about it a little bit, what the issue was, and it was kind of a, it was a lack of trust and some bad history, some history of some things that didn’t go well with the partner group over the years. And I just said to her, I said, well, are you okay? Are you comfortable facing this head on? And I will help you. And we, so we had a little mini retreat, one day, turned into a one day retreat, if you will, with the board of partners to deal with and to help them understand how to get issues on the table and talk about them in a way that people can actually have a conversation. 

And that’s the hardest part because there’s so many emotions that get pulled into this and egos and all that stuff. And it really worked. And as a matter of fact, the feedback I got from her about a month later was, it’s like a new firm. It’s like a new firm because we’re all now pulling together, working together, and just to give them a way to frame up the conversation, leave ego and judgment at the door and just have a real conversation. That’s so important. 

It’s tough. Like you said, conflict. I am, I avoid it at all costs. 

I know we do. It’s human nature. Who wants to get in conflict, right? 

Exactly. In reality, if you just meet it head on. That 10 minutes of your perceived pain is going to be just so cathartic and worth getting past it. So now you can be, you know, not have that in the back of your head.

Well, because what happens is it’s the anticipation of the event. So it’s a “Future Event Experiencing As Real.” It’s an acronym for “fear,” right? You put all this stuff, energy into what you think is going to happen, or you back burner it, right? So it’s just nagging at you constantly. It’s there always. If you want to have a thriving, successful, super successful firm, you’ve got to get those issues on the table in a way that’s productive, take the emotion, the ego out of the equation, the best you can and have the conversation, find a common ground, but if you don’t get on the table, it’s going to keep nagging, and it’s going to really chip away at the trust. That’s what happened. This firm for years had some trust issues building. And our work together in the last two years has really been around strategic vision, but also strengthening trust, which is a kind of a byproduct of the process that I take firms through to really help them find a better way to work together to create the future they want to create.

Yep. Alright, well, we probably then go down any path we were planning, just got a conversation going. I do want to touch on something that you said briefly before, because, and I want you to expand on what you’re doing as well before we close up today, because, you know, we kind of hinted at what you’re doing and you talked about the programs you’re doing, retreats and everything, but before we close up, we’ll get to that. But the one thing that you had mentioned things that are important to you and early on, you said value. And you use value when you’re talking about employees, but you’re also saying we need to figure out how to value our services, right? And I think that’s such a key thing in our profession. I’m probably going down a rabbit hole that we can go down forever. But, you know, you want to expand on that? 

Sure. I, back when I was at BDO, this is many years ago, we had an internal meeting with some leadership and we were looking at some new ways of thinking about the business and I was in a group meeting and it just struck me like a lightning bolt. I don’t know if Ron Baker came and spoke to us or somebody, you remember Ron Baker? 

I know Ron, yep.

So it just struck me like a light bulb. Why are we worried about these billable hours? Clients want a fixed fee. They want to know what they’re going to pay. To me, billable hours is really a cost accounting tool. So you know what, you know, if you want to hold people accountable, yeah, but let’s get away from being tied to the billable hour. What is the real value? And the way I think about it is the whole, it’s the whole Simon Sinek, “know your why.”

Yes. 

Why are you in business? Why do you do what you do? And so part of my strategic visioning process is including kind of a, if you think of a target, like a bull in a bullseye is sort of your why, right? Why do we exist? And have that conversation, a brainstorming session, get it on the table. People are gonna have different views about that and reach some consensus. And really tap into it, because what you’re doing is you’re tapping into the emotional side of your business. And if you’re clear about why you do what you do and the value you bring to the table, at an emotional level, that’s going to come, that’s going to resonate with your clients. You’re going to attract the kind of clients that want to have that value. ’Cause not all companies are going to be a good client. And you’re going to attract the people that want to come and work for you. To me, it’s the same equation, either inside or outside. I call it making your organization internally sticky. We have people as well as outside. And so for me, value is just so important. 

And, you know, recently I was in a conversation with a managing CEO of a firm, and we were talking about some of the things that I could do for them. And they came back with, obviously didn’t articulate appropriately what the real value was for them. And they came back with a number. I said, I’m sorry. I can’t help you because what you think you want is not what I really want to deliver to you. And here’s all the reasons. But we just decided to part ways. And sometimes you got to do that, right? Not everybody’s going to be a perfect fit for your firm. 

Exactly. 

So value is so important and it’s a mindset. It’s really about a mindset and. Also selling, you know, we’ve, as accountants, we don’t, we went into accounting because we don’t want to go into marketing because we thought it was BS, right? So it’s like, to me, selling, all it is you have a client who has a need and you’re going to, you have a way to solve their problem. If you can’t solve the problem, you’re not going to do any work for them in that particular project. But if you have a system or a process or whatever that can help your client solve their problem, and the client sees how urgent that, you know, they recognize how urgent that problem may or may not be for them, it’s urgent, they’re going to be happily pay you for the value you provide. So it’s shifting the whole mindset and the paradigm around, you know, I think as accountants, we tend to undervalue ourselves. 

Oh, a ton. And yeah, that’s what you said with the billable hour. I just think there’s so many negative aspects to that just for everybody, the client, for you personally, for the firm. I mean, the incentives are backwards. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

So, yeah. 

I mean, 100 years ago, it made sense, right? Or 50 years ago, because you were billing, you actually billed the hours you put in. Right. We’ve been on fixed, in the accounting profession, particularly in the assurance side, right? In certain services. We have been billing fixed fee arrangements for a long time.

Right. Well, we’re on the same, plan with all this stuff. So that’s pretty cool. Hey, we’re going to need to start wrapping up here a minute, but let’s talk a little bit about what you are doing. You’re out working with firms, leaders, managing partners, and you know, all kinds of things, retreats and one on ones and consulting. And why don’t you give us a little background on it? 

Yeah, my system, I call it the Leadership Mastery Blueprint. And so it’s either a one on one, typically it’s a one on one relationship with a CEO, managing partner, or a partner, and also group coaching in addition to that. And you have strategic working sessions.So we’re strategic visioning, dealing with conflict, those kinds of things, whatever the client needs. So everything’s custom to the client’s needs and situation. It’s built on a foundation of really tapping into being an authentic leader, kind of clearing the clutter, if you will, having more clarity. So you enjoy your life more, have less stress as a result, and really have a better life as a leader in a CPA and in the profession. And as you articulated in the intro, it’s all about having a better life, and we don’t need to grind ourselves into the ground. And you’ve had some experiences, I’ve had some experiences with health around that. 

And, you know, I grew up where it was 70, 80 hours a week and, you know, weekends and SEC filings and all that stuff. And it took a toll on me for sure, which prompted me to take an early retirement 10 years ago now from BDO, and really led me on a path to what I do now, which I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed myself and love every minute of just working with leaders in the profession to help them be the best they can be.

Yeah, that’s awesome. I love what you’re doing and everything you’re saying. It’s almost like you’re a, you know, a generation younger than you are, because the…

One or two, maybe! 

Yeah, exactly. but I feel the same way with myself. So that’s cool. 

My, my tagline is, I came up with this as a result of my martial arts training, I say, CEO Sensei. And Sensei is a Japanese word actually, but that means teacher, really, and all it really means, a master only in terms of mastery, we’re always striving to be a master, to master something, but you never quite get there. Right. Daniel Pink in his book, Drive, talked about that. And, but it’s, to me, it’s about continual self improvement, continual learning, I’m always learning new things. That’s what makes life exciting. You know, I’m not the kind of guy that’s going to sit on a porch and drink cocktails at five o’clock, although I do sometimes, and play golf every day, right? I’m going to be out there in the working world with the profession and helping the leaders be the best they can be.

That’s awesome. Alright, so a couple last questions. First, you know, we’ve been talking about business and what you’re doing and everything, but whether you’re outside of work passions, what do you enjoy doing when you’re not out coaching leaders? 

I love spending time with my grandson. He’s two and a half. It’s just a blast to be with him and he’s so loving. And I only had one daughter, so I had one shot at a grandchild, a grandson. So this is really cool. And, spending time with him, little boy time. He’s learned my name, Papa, hasn’t said my wife’s name properly yet, so, her nickname, but, he got to me first. Apparently they don’t even say mama yet. 

Oh, wow. Look at you. 

Yeah. So my daughter said, that must be a guy thing. And I love to play golf. It really fuels my competitive spirit to do that. I love fishing, fly fishing in particular. I haven’t done a fly fishing trip in a while, so I need to get back out there and do that. So those are some of the things I like, and I enjoy reading. I’m reading American Prometheus right now, which is about Oppenheimer, which is the movie that’s based on. 

Oh, okay. Yeah. That’d be cool. 

It’s a pretty long book. I took it on vacation. I got about halfway through it, but it’s a Pulitzer Prize winning book, actually. So I love biographies and I love history. But I also read for fun too. And I, you know, I read business books, related books as well to kind of keep fresh of what’s going on in the world and understanding what’s happening out there. 

Then one last, if people want to find out more about what you’re doing or see what, you know, do a connect with you, where would they look or where would they connect?

Yeah. Go to JohnJFenton.com. You can get my free engagement accelerator. A cheat sheet. So it’s JohnJFenton.com/engage. And you’ll connect with me that way and would love to, you know, have a conversation. 

Alright, John. Well, I appreciate you being on. This was a lot of fun for me. I love all the things you’re doing. So thanks for being here. 

Hey, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.