Welcome to The Unique CPA, where we explore the intersections of leadership, communication, and personal growth in the accounting profession. Today, I’m thrilled to have Denise Thomas, the founder of the Effective Communication Coach, join us. Denise is renowned for transforming professionals into extraordinary leaders by mastering the art of effective communication. With over 20 years of experience, she has worked with Fortune 500 companies, nonprofit organizations, and educational institutions worldwide. At this year’s—and I’m very excited about this—at this year’s Bridging the Gap Conference, Denise will deliver a keynote titled, “Leading from Within: Embracing Your Best Self with Authentic Mind and Powerful Leadership,” which is going to be super exciting, I’m very excited about that. Today, we will delve into her coaching philosophy, the importance of effective communication and leadership, and get a sneak peek of the upcoming keynote. Denise, welcome to The Unique CPA.

Wow! Thank you so much, Randy. I appreciate that incredible introduction. I wish you could start my day every day. That was incredible. Thank you.

No problem. We actually met very much on a fluke. You ended up sitting next to a friend of mine on a plane, and it was, I think, right after our conference last year. 

Yes!

Yeah! He immediately reached out to me and said, “Hey, you have to meet Denise. I think she’d be perfect for your conference.” So I’m so glad that happened.

I am too. To your point, as we dive into leadership and leading within, there is never not a good time to demonstrate leadership. Whether that’s a form of networking, connecting, because again, he and I just happened to be sitting on a flight together, and once he said the two words “conference” and “amazing,” I was like, “I want in!” So, I’m so thrilled to be a part of bridging the gap this year. Once again, thank you, Randy.

No, thank you. I’m so glad we were able to get you. I’ll sign up for it. I honestly don’t remember, are you day one or day two? I can’t even remember now.

I believe I’m day two.

I think so too. I think the morning session, day two. So everybody that’s going to be at the conference, make sure you’re awake and ready to get energized on day two. Alright, so let’s jump into this. There are a few things I want to do. I want to get just background. You’ve built this career around communication, effective communication. And so really what inspired you to do this? How did you become this effective communication coach?

You know, it actually started from childhood.

Oh yeah? 

I’m an only child, and I’m a daddy’s girl, and one of the ways I would attempt to spend a lot of time with my dad during his leisure time was watching sports, because he is a big sports fan. I bring that up because during watching the game, I didn’t understand anything that was going on, and after the game, you know, my dad would typically watch the post-game conference, and I’m literally critiquing what I’m hearing, like “He said that wrong,” or “That doesn’t make sense,” or “He didn’t…” My dad’s like, “Shh, shh, shh, we’re not focusing on that.” So at a very early age, I was aware of the power of your voice, your vernacular, your narrative, and how even at that mindset of adolescence, because I’m talking like 10 years old, Randy, of recognizing that whatever your profession is, whatever industry you work in, communication ultimately is what’s going to differentiate you from being a high performer to being an exceptional leader. Because those are two different things.  One can be a part of being an exceptional leader. However, if you’re not someone that can speak to what you’re doing, and to connect with people through words, and whether it’s verbal or nonverbal, it discounts the true impact of your legacy and leadership. 

Wow, so this is a lifelong thing. You were born with this passion for communication. 

Yes.

That’s amazing. I did not grow up with a passion for communication, I honestly don’t think. I was somebody that waited to take speech class to the very last class in college. I dreaded it. I didn’t want to do it. I always had this mindset of, you know what, I’ll talk when there’s something important to say, which is probably okay, but people can’t shut me up now, so I don’t know what happened. I don’t know where that transformation happened.

You know Randy, that’s fair, because 99% of the world’s population, number one, fears public speaking. And that is a result of how we—and typically, for folks like me, I’m a Gen Xer. So I was conditioned and socialized primarily in the 80s and 90s. Back then, communication was a soft skill. Do you remember that, Randy? 

Oh yeah.

When it was like, you had to have technical skills, you had to have business acumen, and communication was always, “That’s a soft skill. We’ll work on that later.” Fast forward, you and I both realize that communication is not only a critical skill, it is the one aspect of relationships that takes you from this level—you know, meeting expectations—to the next level, exceeding expectations. So it’s fair that that’s been your experience.

That’s fair. I appreciate that. Let’s get into that a little bit then. Let’s tease a little bit of what you’re doing at the conference. I love the title, “Leading from Within,” which is great. “Embracing Your Best Self and Authentic Mind for Powerful Leadership.” So let’s break that down a little. What are you expecting to talk about at the conference?

Yes. Well, thank you for that question because leadership oftentimes focuses on others, which is valid. However, wherever you are in your leadership journey, and this is what I’ll really dive into during the conference, it’s not just about having a title, whether it’s senior director or general manager. It’s not just about that. It’s most definitely about the ability to distinguish whether I’m leading or managing others. And sometimes you have to do both because of the situation, but all of that, Randy, it starts internally. So in order for me to be able to lead within, that means I have to align my core values, my vision, and my voice before I can influence others around me.

Got it. Makes sense. Alright, so let’s talk about the “within.” So, you know, “Embracing Your Best Self.” Break that down. What does that mean? What am I looking to do if I’m embracing my best self?

That’s another great question. I ultimately ask myself this question—I’ll share this with you and your audience, Randy. You have to ask yourself regularly, “Am I leading from fear or am I leading from purpose?” And it sounds dramatic, doesn’t it? But oftentimes again, in any type of ship—whether it’s a partnership, leadership—we are seeking validation and measuring whether our leadership is impactful based on others. This is where your self-awareness, your self-leadership, that’s where that comes in. So you’ve got to check in with yourself every day, and you’ve got to make sure that your mindset, energy, and emotional health are impacting how you’re leading others. So that’s where it starts with me, Randy. When I get up in the morning, there are certain things I do. I like quiet mornings. I’m not that person that just likes to jump out of bed.

I agree.

I like to ease into it, right?

Yeah, me too.

With that, I maximize that time as an opportunity to again, reflect—how I want to show up today? What do I want to do differently today? Here’s the kicker, and this is where some people are like, “Really?” But it works. I always say, I did it this morning before you and I started this amazing podcast, “Something amazing is going to happen to me today.”

That’s a great attitude. I love that. I’m similar from the standpoint that I have this attitude of gratitude. I just love every day. I love everything that’s happening. I love the fact that you and I get to talk right now. But I am not as intentional as you are in the morning. I’m more of, “Okay, what’s my Wordle score going to be this morning? Or what’s my Quordle or Octordle score going to be this morning?” But that’s how I get my brain going in the morning.

But that’s okay because that’s an indication that you are leading from purpose. Everything that you just shared, Randy, is in direct alignment with your core values, and I don’t even have to know you personally to know that one of your core values is being committed to purposeful, meaningful work. You are committed to deliverables. You are results-oriented. That’s part of your core values. So you’re leading from purpose. Leading from fear, which is another thing I’m going to talk to the attendees about, is if you wake up in the morning and say, “Man, I’m running late,” just starting with that, “I’m running late. Every light is going to be red. It’s going to be a bunch of traffic. Oh man, I’m not ready for this meeting. I’m not prepared. I hope they cancel,” those things indicate you are leading from fear. So what you do is great.

Yeah, and what you’re doing in that situation is you are setting a negative mindset for the rest of the day or the rest of the week or the rest of the month or whatever it is. To me, mindset is so important because, you know, I’ve been through areas where I’ve allowed my mind to play tricks on me, and I’ve decided that’s never going to happen again. So going in with a positive mindset from day one, from minute one when you wake up, that’s, I guess, my main philosophy of how the day’s going to go.

I love it. Now, I will say this really quickly, Randy, because I know some of our audience members are thinking, “Oh, that’s great, Denise and Randy. Every day is so perfect for y’all. Wonderful. I can’t wait to have a part of that life.” So the reality is that, especially in today’s climate, for a number of people, and people who will be attending Bridging the Gap, are experiencing what I’m calling “life is lightning” right now. With that, it’s very difficult to lead with purpose when so many things are causing you to feel anxiety, reservations, and ultimately fear. That, Randy, is fair. So on those days, I have to be complete with myself as part of self-awareness and leading within by saying, “You know what, I don’t have anything to give today, so I may need to replenish.” And that’s quite okay, because I’d rather people take responsibility and take the time to reset versus going into their organization with that negative, fear-driven leadership.

Yep. And you and I were talking before we went on the recording about vulnerability, and if you are afraid or feel you can’t show any sign of weakness, and think you just have to power through today, even though you’re not fully present, that’s not going to be good for you or anybody else you’re working with. So, when I mentioned vulnerability, you said it’s the cousin or a sibling or something—explain what you said earlier.

It’s the first cousin of leadership. A wise, wise leadership coach gave that gift of wisdom to me probably over 15 years ago. When she shared it with me, Randy, it hit me like, it was just this force. And when you think about it, how many times growing up did we associate leaders with vulnerability? We didn’t. Because whether you were Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel Comics, DC Comics—superheroes, their vulnerability might have been kryptonite, but other than that, you didn’t see a lot of weakness. That’s what most of the time, vulnerability was associated with. Fast forward, vulnerability is the first cousin to exceptional leadership, and the reason why is exactly what you just said, Randy: It’s because people want to understand that you, as a leader, are going through things, you’re navigating rapid change, adapting to AI, or overcoming economic shifts. Whatever scenarios you are navigating that cause you to feel anxious or have reservations, it’s critical that you share that in a form of storytelling with your team members—people who depend on your leadership. Because if they know that you’re able to overcome, if they know that you’re navigating, then they will feel more secure knowing it’s okay for them to do the same. That’s why it’s the first cousin of exceptional leadership, transparency, and vulnerability.

Yeah, transparency is another one, empathy, intentionality, just about leading with intentionality. All those things I think are super important. I just finished a book by Jacob Morgan, Leading with Vulnerability. In there, he talks about the fact that there’s a difference between vulnerability and leading with vulnerability, which is true, but vulnerability is, “Hey, I made a mistake.” Okay, I’m being vulnerable. But what’s the impact of that? “Okay, I made a mistake, and I don’t have the answer. I need your help.” “Oh, I made a mistake. Here’s what I learned from it, and hopefully, this helps you with something.” Just those simple extra words are a big difference—oh! Communication! I’m talking now, you should be talking, not me.

No, this is great. This is why I love when people come together that are different, but share a lot of the same guiding principles. And so, one of the things that I do, and speaking of Star Wars, I’m going to drop a Yoda-ism because I love me some Yoda quotes. One of my favorite Yoda quotes is, “The greatest teacher, failure is. The greatest teacher, failure is.” Any moment where you, as a leader, whether you have a direct report or a team of direct reports or not, in that moment, and this is something I had to practice as part of my emotional, physical, and overall well-being, Randy, is, what did this moment teach me? Mistakes, failures, setbacks, they are the greatest teachers. But they will only serve as a teacher when you take a moment, and this goes back to leading from within, to reflect on “What did this moment teach me?” And I can tell you, you know, making mistakes and errors, there’s not a lot of room for that. But when it does happen, give yourself that grace and say, “Okay, what did I learn from this moment?” Then move forward because that, again, experience is what makes people experts.

Oh yeah, I’m a much better expert than I was 40 years ago because I have a lot more experience. 

Exactly.

One thing, what you were just saying, the fear to fail. If there’s not a vulnerable leader, people are going to have this fear to fail. An organization can’t thrive without being creative and innovative, in my mind, and if there’s this fear of failure, you’re not going to be creative and innovative, and then you’re going to fall flat, or you’re going to get passed by. I think there was a statistic from Harvard Business School, some statistic out there, that shows organizations that promote vulnerable leadership are 30 percent more innovative and creative. However you measure that, but man, I’ll take that in a heartbeat.

Oh, that’s what we need now more than ever. Leadership requires adaptability, and leadership also requires—and this is one of my favorite phrases—embracing the mess. You have to be able to embrace the mess. Embracing it again is a call to action. Where do we go from here? What you’ll find, the value proposition in this, to your point, and to the Harvard Business School statistics, is you will find that more people within your organization will organically follow you, follow your leadership, trust you, the more they see you being transparent and demonstrating the ability to say, “You know what, I made a mistake,” or “You know what, I made the wrong decision. I apologize. Here’s what we’re going to do moving forward.” Can you imagine that? Can you imagine if you look at your trajectory, Randy, and you look at all the times where you heard a leader, someone who you looked up to, admired, and respected, to hear them say, “You know what, Randy? You know what, team? I made a mistake. But here’s what we’re going to do after I’ve reflected on it, and hopefully, this will organically turn into a best practice.” Do you know how powerful that is?

Oh yeah, huge. Let’s get into that then. Let’s talk about the Effective Communication Coach. Let’s talk about what you’re doing. And maybe if you have it, give us a case study where you’ve gone in and had a positive impact on a leader, and then the results that happened within that organization from that.

Great question. And I have to just before I get into that, preface this with: This is one of the most sought-after areas of focus right now, whether it’s an individual or a client who wants me to come and coach a group. So lreading from within takes a lot of work to distinguish whether you’re leading or managing. That’s going to be big because change is inevitable and it’s rapid, and it’s going to be crucial for your audience, as well as those attending the Bridging the Gap conference, to clearly distinguish between whether they are focusing daily on processes, tasks, and efficiencies, or on people, vision, and influence. I’m not saying you can’t do both, Randy, but you have to make that distinction on how you are leading in this situation or how am I leading on this project? Both are necessary—I want to be clear—both are necessary, but when you have an over-reliance on one versus the other, it will limit your growth; it will limit, to your point, the innovation aspect, and in addition to that, the team empowerment. Most people that report to you in today’s climate, the work has to be meaningful and it has to be aligned with their purpose, and they have to feel that this work is positioning them for success, because a lot of people associate whether or not the company is successful with their success.  There’s no longer the days where you could tell your team member like, “Hey, Randy, you’ve been chosen, or you’ve been invited to play a role on this highly visible project.” You know, we used to be so excited. We’d be like, “I don’t really like this, but I’m going to do it.” Those days are over. So you have to shift the focus when it comes to driving innovation, results, and most importantly, seeing that EBITDA—helping our companies become great places to work and be profitable. That starts with the vision alignment and that starts with delegating tasks that align with purpose and meaning.

Man, you’re saying everything I love. Sorry, keep going.

I’m very passionate about this because, again, so many people—okay, I was going to save this for, and I’ll probably bring it up, but I’ll share a personal/professional experience. I had a client reach out to me. They said, “Hey, Denise, we’ve been experiencing significant employee turnover.” And I initially wanted to understand their talent acquisition process at a high macro level, like just walk me through, at a macro level, your talent acquisition process. Okay, great. Now let’s go into talent retention. And I said, “How many people managers or individual contributors have you promoted in the past year?” They gave me the data. Out of these people managers that were promoted from IC, individual contributors, how many have experienced this employee turnover? 78%.

Okay, Randy, now stay with me. I want to deep dive, I want to do some root cause analysis. And basically, without getting into too much detail, we found that, and this is a trend, a behavior that a lot of employers do, a number of employers will promote individual contributors into people management roles, or people leadership—let me clarify—people leadership roles, based on their performance, their technical acumen, with zero passion for people. I will say this, Randy, and then we can move on because I obviously want to talk about this in Colorado: Dear hiring managers, dear HR directors, business partners, please stop promoting people that don’t like people into people management roles, because every time a client reaches out to me to address employee turnover, they focus, Randy, on the people. “You have to come in here, and you have to talk to the team, you have to get them re-motivated.” I’m like, I will do that happily, but let’s go a little further in terms of how we got here in the first place. 

Yep. Let’s look at the cause. 

Which then resulted in me coaching people managers versus the actual people.

Nice. So it seems like a common thing when you go into places. I mean, we’ve actually done that, we’ve learned that lesson ourselves at Tri Merit a few times. We’ve got great people. It doesn’t mean that they’re not still great people; it’s just that they then find the right role that makes sense for them, if we had put them in the wrong role. It doesn’t mean that they’re not the right person for the organization; it’s just that they’re not the right person for the role because they aren’t a people person or whatever, or they don’t have the technical skills and they are a manager, and we did the opposite. So analyzing people, looking at what their skills and passions are, and aligning those with what they’re doing is crucial. I have a saying that I think I made up, and it’s because this is where I live: I live at the intersection of my passion and my skills. If everybody can live at that intersection with what they’re doing within an organization, how can that organization not thrive?

I love it, exactly. To build off what you just shared, I want to encourage  your audience to create space from a leadership standpoint. One of the words you and I, Randy, have been saying throughout this podcast is innovation and transforming your mindset. I want to build off that and share with your audience that moving your mindset from being a doer to a developer will help your leadership brand immensely. Let me just expand on that. Because as leaders, there’s a great deal of responsibility to exceed results across business, across people, it’s a lot of pressure. Quite frankly, the higher you go up, it gets lonelier. Going back to Star Wars, you had Yoda and you had Luke Skywalker,  because if you are a Star Wars fan, you will know that every time Luke Skywalker would walk through the swamps and walk for days just to get some advice from Yoda, Yoda had very few words, but the words that he had were impactful and they empowered Luke Skywalker to be the hero. 

We as leaders, one of the great ways to measure your impact as a leader, especially when you lead people, is how many heroes or heroines are you creating? Because if you find yourself being the hero, that’s not leadership. But if you find yourself developing people to become heroes, that is what makes you an exceptional leader. And that’s why Luke Skywalker again would walk through the trenches, because he knew that Yoda, a former Jedi, a former Luke Skywalker, was now in his role as a leader to develop others to be just that.  

Awesome. So, this has been the Star Wars Podcast, and thank you for joining us tonight. We’ve got to get you out developing just a straight hour presentation on Yodaisms in leadership. That would be awesome. As a side note, a friend of mine last year at our conference, great guy, Terrell Turner, he could speak on anything—before our conference, and I didn’t realize he was going to take me seriously, I said, “Hey, I want you to base your entire presentation on marketing off Captain Underpants.” And he ended up doing it, and I’m like, wait, you’re really doing this? So that was amazing. So we’ll have the Yodaisms, we’ll have Captain Underpants—we’re going to figure out what else we can do.

That’s a combination right there. Yoda and Captain Underpants. No better. That’ll be a sellout for sure.

Alright, so this has been a great conversation. I could talk to you all day long. If I see you before you go on stage at the conference, we’ll just be talking for hours, which will be fine. I’m looking forward to seeing you in person. But, I think we’re going to wrap up. Before we do—a couple of final things. One of the things, and I think you would probably agree, that is important for me personally is to know people outside of their job title, and know what their passions are outside of work. So my question to you is, when you’re not out there making great leaders and working on great communication skills, what do you enjoy doing? It sounds like sports may be one of them, but what do you enjoy doing?

Definitely a diehard Bears fan. 

Yes!

You can even see my coffee mug holder is, I’m Bear Down all the way. Outside of that, I just recently came back from two weeks in Japan. I spent time in Nara, Kyoto, Osaka, Tokyo. I love to travel abroad because to me, one of the best educators is just immersing yourself in different cultures in different areas of the world. There’s a song, What a Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong, and that’s why it’s so important for me, Randy. If I just solely rely on what I see and read on the news and social media, I would think this world is terrible. But contrary to popular belief, every time I travel, whether it’s within the United States or outside, abroad, I learn so much about how there are truly more good people in this world.

I agree. Travel is a big thing for our family. My wife and I do it quite often and we learn stuff and meet cool people every single time, so that’s awesome. And I think you’re probably pretty good at meeting people.

I, you know, I’m really shy.

That’s shining through. Your shyness is shining through today for sure.

I’m not shy. I’m probably too outgoing at times. But yeah, one of my passions is definitely traveling and just using that as an education and as a leadership development resource.

That’s awesome. And if anybody, well, they’ll see you at the conference. But if anybody wants to find out more about what you’re doing, Effective Communication Coach, see where you’re speaking next, any information, blogs, where would they look?

Please connect with me. I would love for you to connect with me. My website address, which will give you all the access to me, is www.realcommcoach.com. That’s also my handle and username across all social media profiles, Realcommcoach. I look forward to connecting with your audience both online, virtually, as well as in Denver!

Nice, it’s going to be a blast, and we will put that in the show notes as well, so people can reach out to you. Denise, it’s been great talking with you today. As a side note, you and I get to do it again tomorrow, so I’m excited about that as well. Great talking to you. We look forward to seeing you in July. And I’m thinking people need to reach out to you because there’s so much great information you’re willing to share. Whether it’s Star Wars or other things.

Thanks. I appreciate it, Randy. I look forward to hearing and connecting with everyone. Thank you again. This has been a pleasure.