Today, our guest is Anna Lovell-Nesmith. Anna is a burnout specialist, which I’m very excited to have this conversation—anybody that ever listens to The Unique CPA knows that’s a topic I’m passionate about, not only talking about but making a difference in. Her tagline is she’s a “professional burnout specialist for business professionals,” which is what we are as accountants, business professionals. She’s helping to avoid, navigate, and overcome burnout. I want to hear about all of that, and she does a lot of work specifically with accountants and bookkeepers and tax professionals. So, Anna, welcome to The Unique CPA.

Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

Yeah. You and I were introduced, oh man, I think it was late in the summer by our mutual friend Kristen Keats, right? Kristen introduced us. Kristen has been a guest on the show as well. She’s a great person, but she introduced us. She knows that we both are passionate about this topic. So why don’t we jump into it? Why don’t you give us a little bit of a background on you and what you are currently doing, and then we’ll get into the issue with professionals in general.

Okay, that sounds great. So, I have a Bachelor’s of Science in Psychology from Portland State University, and I’ve been doing this a little over a decade. And I just, you know, really feel like, I mean, it’s manifested in different ways. I had different labels that I was working with for, you know, my target audience, but ultimately it’s been burnout the whole time. I have a, I’m a certified life coach. I have other certifications. And so I just really have a passion for helping people to just avoid, navigate, and overcome burnout.

And just from that standpoint, are you working one-on-one, are you working with firms, are you working, what is the typical group or individual you’re working with, I guess?

It’s all of that. So I do one-to-one, I also do workshops for firms, I work with firms, it’s just wherever I’m needed. I go and then I help and I support and then I walk them through burnout, or just create the awareness depending on kind of what I’m doing for that company. 

Awareness is obviously important too, because I think often, we don’t even realize that the burnout’s kicking in. It’s just, oh, it’s, you know, it’s busy season and I’m just tired. That’s all it is. And I want to ask you this question. I don’t know if you have a standard definition that you use for burnout. I’ve Google searched and everywhere I look, it’s the same, but when someone asks you, or you need to explain what burnout is, how do you explain it?

Mostly the one word that seems to just go across all industries is overwhelm, and stress, and exhaustion. And so it’s not really like a definition, so to speak. It’s more like what’s the common denominator that we’re seeing all throughout, and what burnout really looks like with people. And then from that, it can manifest differently from how a person’s responding, how they’re feeling, how they’re sleeping or not sleeping. But really at the end of the day, overwhelm is like the biggest indicator because you’re right. Burnout is so sneaky that sometimes we don’t even know that it’s like creeping in until, you know, a month later, this person’s like, “I am just so overwhelmed that I can’t seem to get on top of anything.”

Right. Yeah. And then unfortunately, if it goes uncontrolled, I mean, I assume that’s where we can get into anxiety and depression and mental illness in general. And that’s why it’s so important that one, the awareness of what you’re doing and two, the education on how to avoid it and recognize it as well. So do you often see it turn into these other issues as well?

Yeah. And oftentimes people will come to me after they’ve wound up in the ER and the doctors were like, “We don’t know what’s going on. We can’t find anything. All your tests came back negative. Everything is fine.” Meanwhile, these people went in thinking they were having like a heart attack or a severe panic attack or all these things. And so it does, it goes into those mental health issues that look like… And I’m not saying there isn’t anxiety, and I’m not saying there’s not depression, but when it’s stemmed from burnout, it looks the exact same, right? And so we have to go in, talk about what’s going on, where is this coming from, how long has it been going on. If the doctors have said they can’t find anything wrong, or they can’t diagnose exactly what it is, then let’s talk about burnout and see if that’s kind of the trigger.

Yep. So let’s talk about burnout then in general. So what are you seeing? You know, this is The Unique CPA and it sounds like a lot of the people you work with are in the accounting profession, which is good for this discussion. I guess it’s bad for what’s going on in the accounting profession, but what are you seeing in the accounting profession in general from a standpoint of burnout? How common and how often and that kind of thing?

I think it’s pretty common. I mean, that’s primarily most of my clients. And it happens, I think, because there’s always a deadline, even when you reach one, there’s another one looming. It’s like, you’re never done, right? And so the feeling of there’s always more to do, I think, really perpetuates the burnout. And then, you know, having that sense of no control in the schedule or feeling like they’re having to pivot and react instead of respond, I think that’s a lot of what I share with people is when they are in such a state of reaction mode rather than responding, that’s a huge indicator that burnout is completely present, right? 

So what that might look like, even if it’s stemming from work as an accountant or CPA or whatever, at home, it can look like, you know, your kid knocks something over and you blast out like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this just got knocked over. You know better,” versus, “Okay, let me help clean this up. I need you to slow down. I need you to take care of your actions and your body,” depending on how old your child is. But I have 10-year-old boys. And so that’s usually where I am. I have twins. And so usually they’re like, slow your body down. But if we’re responding, then it’s more loving. It’s more calm, and our physiological response in that moment is calm. But when we’re reacting and we have burnout, everything is amplified and our heart starts to race and our stress level goes up and we’re blasting out at our kids or our spouses or whoever, and it gets really loud, right? 

And so you see that a lot in the industry with accounting and stuff because of the never-ending deadlines, the fact that there’s always more to do. You’re dealing with people and if they’re not getting their documents to you but you’re at the deadline, then you’re put in a really uncomfortable position and then they come back and they get mad because the deadline wasn’t met and it’s just a… it can be a very big mess dealing with so many personalities as well as trying to have your autonomy in your schedule, meeting the deadlines, and then not being provided the proper documentation from clients or whatever the situation is.

So then obviously, we’re looking at it as being fairly prevalent in the profession, which there are statistics out there and they’re all over the place. But I think one of them I saw is that at some point in their career, you know, 50 percent of accountants say they think they’ve gone through burnout. I mean, that’s a high number and that’s probably even higher than that. I dunno. Do you have stats on that at all?

I don’t have any stats that are current. The last time I pulled was out like two years ago and it’s so different now. You know what I mean? It’s so much different.

Have you seen that burnout has become more prevalent in that last few years that you’re talking about?

Yeah. I mean, significantly. I mean, it’s just because of everything that we’ve been through. And then again, the deadlines, and there were so many changes in 2023. They changed so much of what they wanted, how they wanted. So it was a lot trying to always keep up, you know?

Oh yeah, for sure. So, okay. So now we kind of identified what it is, identified that it’s way too prevalent, but now you’re going to go out and you’re going to fix us, right? And so, how do you do that? What’s a typical process you go through? Because honestly, I was looking at your LinkedIn and it says “100 percent success rate. I help business professionals navigate and overcome burnout and transform their life.” So let’s talk about that process then that you help people go through to get past this.

Yeah. So when I’m working one-to-one, usually it’s a really focused, 12-week program that we work through and it’s a high-touch value where I’m really walking alongside of them, I’m checking in with them bi-weekly, there’s a lot of support that helps them slow down. And then I offer them bite-sized homework is what I call it. And really what it is, and it’s dependent on the person and their personality, so if I offer you a tool, it’s going to be intuitive to your personality and kind of how you operate in your daily life, so you’re not having to think bigger or different or add anything more into an already overwhelmed, busy 70-hour week. And so that’s how that looks. It’s just really high-touch and it’s a lot of support and it’s very focused on that person. And how I handle one person may not be how I handle another because it is very much personalized to what’s intuitive to that person, how they can most benefit from what we’re going to do to help them walk through it. 

So that can look like… For some people, it can be something as small as journaling three things in the morning, right? For some people, they’re like, “Well, that doesn’t make any sense to me. I can’t stand journaling. I don’t care.” Or, “I’m too much of a perfectionist to try and write sloppy in the morning,” or whatever the situation is. And so obviously I would not offer that to a person who is not intuitive to that. But, you know, it could be maybe taking a hike, right? Literally taking a hike! So anyhow, it’s very intentional and personalized. And so with that, and that high attention to focus and detail for that person, I’m really very much able to walk them through a hundred percent success rate, because the amount of intention and care I put for that person, I mean, as much as I’m the professional and I’m able to be their guide, if they’re hurting, I’m hurting. I don’t want them to hurt. It’s so important to me that they walk through that time of burnout, that they are able to equip—that I equip them, right? So that when our work is done, they’re forever able to use and implement the tools that I’ve shared with them and taught them. 

And sometimes people do choose to come back to me, but that’s not my intention. My intention is I want to equip you so that the next time this happens, you can recognize it and you know what to do to walk through it again. Or even better, now that you know what to do, you can share these tools with somebody else. Because at the end of the day, burnout’s going to happen to all of us, and my journey isn’t to just have people rely on me. I want them to be free from it, and also be able to share what they’ve learned so that the whole world can figure out how to navigate this. Because honestly, the worst-case scenario of burnout is death. And I don’t say that lightly. Whether it’s self-inflicted or it’s just that level of stress that’s been so much in that body that it’s caused so much dis-ease that it’s taken them out. I mean, that’s the truth of it, right? And that’s why it scares me because I have witnessed it and it’s just awful. 

So really, at the end of the day, what I’m here to do is to truly teach people how to work with this. And I don’t say that with any kind of ego. I say it with full humility that I do have a hundred percent success rate, but it’s because that’s my heart behind it. That’s my intention. And people aren’t just, you know, coming through the door where I’m like, “OK, good. Let me just roll another one through. See you later.” It’s so much more than that. And so that’s how I’m able to say that. And so in that one-to-one area, that’s the focus. And that’s what that kind of looks like.

And then for companies, when I’m doing the workshop, I create the awareness and then I offer tools. And depending on the industry, because I’ve been asked to do workshops for different industries, and my most recent one was for teachers, actually, and anyhow, so I go and I find the statistics, and I’m doing things like that, and then I share it with the crowd, so they recognize not only are they not alone, but this is a very common occurrence. Once we figured out who can be affected by burnout, what the stats are for that industry, then I talk about, okay, why does it matter? Why does burnout matter? And then at the end I talk about, well, here’s what you can do immediately if you feel even the slightest bit overwhelmed or stressed out. And I offer like three or four different strategies in that workshop. And again, it’s a hundred percent success because I’m equipping these people.

Yeah. So what I see in our profession, and I agree, you know, it’s not just accounting. In fact, last week I was in the Dominican Republic doing a burnout presentation for the construction industry, which I don’t know if you’ve ever dealt with construction—when you look at the statistics there, it is, you know, you were talking about suicide before, the suicide rates are very high in the construction industry. For that, it was difficult because you have almost—you—you had to do one-on-one with people, I think, for this, because in the construction profession, you have, somebody in the field has a lot of different stressors than somebody in the office, than somebody that owns it. And so it’s a… it’s just a wide range of stuff. But, alright, I digress, but it’s basically, I’m agreeing with you that, yes, the stressors in the business are significant. 

What I’ve seen from a burnout standpoint in our profession is, we have a personality, accountants have this personality that we got to help. We’re helpers. We’re going to help everybody. We have the answers. We know the problems. We have solutions. And so we just go, because we want to keep helping and we forget about helping ourselves. And so from a burnout standpoint, what happens is what you said, then you start to get tired and you’re getting exhausted. You’re not going to be as productive. Then you start to get negative and cynical about what you’re doing. And what do we do as a profession, instead of recognizing that and figuring out I have to change? No, I’m just going to work harder. I’m going to put more hours in because my to-do list is getting so much bigger, because I’m becoming less efficient, because I’m tired now, because I’m getting cynical, but I can get through this. I can just power my way through it and then I’ll be fine again. 

And then that just snowballs and just, you know, boom, rolls down the hill to the point where at some point you just have to explode. And that’s what I think it’s… I think it’s not a personality defect, helping people is great, but it is a personality defect from the standpoint that we forget that we are important. I don’t know, does that sound familiar to you? Does that sound like the personality that you see in the accounting profession?

Yep, 100%. I call it the fixer. They’re the fixers, right? Want to fix everything, you know? But yes, exactly, the helper. Yes, a hundred percent. And it is, it’s that idea that like, if I can just get through this next deadline, if I can just… right? Like we give ourselves false hope. We’re almost there. We’re almost there. But really, you’re right. It starts to get really big and snowball.

Yep. And we think, yeah, we’re almost there. And look at my to-do list. I can get through this. Number 200 is within sight now on my to-do list. And then when you get through this next deadline, everything’s going to be great. And then by that time, your to-do list is 250 and then you never dig out of it. And then, so when you do the same thing we just said, you start putting in more hours and you’re working weekends and you’re answering emails at 10 o’clock at night, and you wake up at three in the morning because you can’t remember what project you’re working on tomorrow. And all this, if any of this resonates with anybody, that’s a sign that you need to make some changes because you are, maybe not even at risk, you’re at the burnout level already. 

Alright, so let’s go back on to the way you’re helping people, the way that you’re out there, you know, individualizing the support for them. Are there like five top things that you talk to people about that you guide them through that really you find the most helpful in getting to a point where burnout is successfully managed?

Yeah, I think so. So oftentimes, I mean, I don’t know if I can give you five off the top of my head, but I’ll try. So, time management, right? I mean, we know this, but if no one’s holding us accountable, then we, like you said, we just, “If we can just get through this next thing, I have to check this next thing off my list.” Oh, but the list is growing. But if someone says, wait a minute, slow down and talk with me about your week. What does it look like? What are the top 10 things that absolutely have to get done this week? And then, you know, let’s talk about that.

I also… so one is time management. Two, the second part of that is prioritizing by impact. So once we identify the top 10 things or whatever it is, then we look at those 10 and say, okay, well, which one’s most impactful? What is the one that you need to do first, that’s going to have the largest impact on the rest of the schedule? And then we carve that out and we go from there. So we kind of go, you know, 10 being most impactful, 1 being least. And so then that kind of helps them have a direction because another thing that happens in burnout with the overwhelm is like, I don’t know where to start. I have a whole list of 250 things, right? And I’m trying to, I’m going to try and chip away at some of this with this project. I’m going to try and chip away at some of that. And then all of a sudden, you spent 10 hours chipping away at a hundred different things, but nothing has really changed, because at the end of the day, all that stress, all that overwhelm is still there. So that’s kind of the third thing, making sure that we’re intentional with our time.

And also, the beautiful thing about that is when we give our mind a short list, right? I mean, we have our big one, but if you can take the 10, then when you start to feel like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know what to do next, I’m not sure where to start, where do I focus my attention in that moment?” And I always tell people the fourth, so the fourth thing is, look at your list. Where are you at? Did you get your number 10 done? What’s your nine look like? How’s your eight? And that is such a beautiful peace, and I mean like peace as in calm, peaceful thinking, because it slows the mind down. Because when we’re in burnout, our mind is racing. We’re trying so hard to do everything all at once. And the way that we can start to really navigate and switch that burnout up is, number one, we’re interrupting the pattern is what that is coming down to. When we slow down our thinking, and we can give our mind a focal point, that’s slowing down the thinking, and it’s causing you to take a moment to breathe, and it’s giving the mind peace because you’re like, okay, for this next hour, I’m going to focus on 10.

And I guess that’s number five. Oftentimes I tell people, use a timer. Let’s say a lot of times, people feel like, “Well, I have to take a phone call from the clients. I’ve got to answer emails. I’ve got to do this. I’ve got to do that. I’ve got to hop on this meeting. I have to, have to, have to…” But if you’re like, okay, let’s talk about you taking one hour. Carve out an hour, set a timer so that your subconscious knows the timer will go off in an hour. You don’t have to look at the clock, you don’t have to worry about checking your watch. In an hour, you can go and check your voicemail, you can go and check your email, you can go and get back to whatever it is. But for that hour, carve out time for 10. 

And then take a 15-minute break, set your timer, because what this is doing is it’s creating peace in the chaos. Because burnout is very much not controlled chaos, but it tries to be controlled chaos. And so when we unwind, when we interrupt the pattern of burnout, when we slow down the thinking and make it more empowering thinking rather than, not “victim” in a bad way, but, “Oh my gosh, I’m just reacting to everything around me,” that’s a huge shift. So I guess that’s my top five.

Yeah! You had five there. I just picked a random number out of the air and look at you, just filling up the five. Alright. I think those are all great tips, and a lot of things that I kind of talk about as well. I think you say it better than me, but I talk about it as well. Time management being one of the biggest ones. And I love that whole timer issue because we are, and you’ve said it already, we are very reactive, like okay, I got a text, I’m going to look at that. Boom, now I’ve got two things going through. Oh, I just got a Teams message, I’m going to look at that too. Now I’ve got three things going through my mind, and I’m trying to go through this project, I’ve got four things, and all this stuff. 

It was funny, I was on a podcast earlier today, I was a guest on someone else’s podcast, and he was telling me the story that he read somewhere recently, when we multitask, our IQ goes down by 10 points. And I don’t know where he got that, but I can honestly see it, and because our minds are just going all over the place. So setting the timer, having this focus time where you got that top 10 list, and often I even talk about top three list. Let’s just worry about the top three things right now. But I love the top 10 too. But the top things that we need to do, think about, forget the rest. They’re not important right now. Let’s get these top ones worked on in this focus time. 

And something you just said almost in passing afterward is, when that hour’s up, take a break. Go 15 minutes, take a walk, whatever it is, because your mind needs rest time. You can’t be going non-stop. And so that kind of brings that calm, that peace in. And don’t freak out that you’re not at your desk. Sorry, I’m now, I’m on a rant. But don’t freak out that you’re not at your desk because you’re going to be more efficient if you give yourself time to get regenerated, refreshed during the day. So I love what you just said there. Alright, there’s my rant. I’ll throw it back to you if you wanted to add anything.

Yeah, no, I love it. I think this is great because we’re both very excited about the topic and it’s so important that we talk about it and we normalize it, right? Because every single person is going to go through burnout, it’s just a matter of when. And I don’t mean that to sound scary or ominous. It’s more like reality, right? The mom who stays at home with the five children, she is going to go through burnout. Even though that sounds counterintuitive, and I know that as a mom, the business owner, the person who’s bagging our groceries, the person who is literally anywhere in life. I mean, maybe in some other part of the world where the culture is very peaceful and calm and still very much dependent on the land, maybe that burnout won’t be happening there, I don’t really know.

I think Finland’s the happiest country, so maybe there.

Well, I actually just heard about… I don’t know if it was Finland or Switzerland, but one of them, they have a burnout clinic. They’ve legally recognized burnout as like a psychological support needed. And so they have a clinic, and I don’t remember if it was Finland or Switzerland, but it was out there somewhere. So, but you’re right. That’s the thing, when we can learn tools that help empower us, then that helps rewind and undo some of that stress. And when we can quiet our mind, it’s almost like active meditation. If we know we have one hour just to commit to whatever the task is, and on that hour, the timer will go off, so we don’t have to check, we can trust that our tools are working for us, we can just be in the moment. 

And that’s, I think, another thing that’s so important. I talk a lot about how burnout, it’s like a thief in the night. It comes and robs you of your sleep, steals your happiness, steals your joy. It’s like the villain. That’s how I mean, but really it is. 

No you’re right, I love it. 

And so when we recognize that, it’s very sneaky. It can almost seem seductive at first, because some people get a high like, “I just pounded out 15 things today and they were huge.” And my boss was like, “Whoa, that’s amazing.” Or the client was like, “Wow, that was phenomenal.” And then you get excited, like, “Oh my gosh, I’m like Superman. I can do this and I can give you more. What else you got?” And then all of a sudden, it’s like, boom, burnout. And it’s like, what is happening? I’m void of joy. I feel miserable. I’m cynical, I’m frustrated, I’m angry, my health has taken a toll, I’m not sleeping, and it’s because all those things have been robbed of us because burnout’s like that thief that comes and takes it and you don’t even know it. Because until sometimes it’s too late. And it’s sneaky. I mean, burnout is such a thing. 

And I’m grateful too because there are people like you in the world and myself in the world and we’re sharing about this and saying, look, it’s okay. We’ve all, we’re gonna go through it. I’ve been through it. I know how it feels. I know how scary it can seem. I know how heavy the world can feel and how alone, a lot of times we feel alone, like, “Well, Bob over there seems like he’s got it all figured out and I’m sitting here feeling like I can’t even, I don’t even know which way is up.” I mean, it’s such a mess. So when we can bring clarity, and we can bring peace and we can bring tools to equip people and empower them, and let them know that burnout is just a part of life, the difference from one person to the next isn’t the burnout, it’s what we do with it. Do we seek help and do we empower ourselves to figure out how to walk through this? Or do we suffer in silence and feel like, “Well, no one else feels this way” because that’s a lie. Everyone feels that way. It’s a lie.

For sure. I think a couple things you just said are so important. We need to de-stigmatize this, you know, we don’t have to hide in the corner that we’re going through something; demystify the fact that it’s okay to reach out for others for help, you know, somebody like you or a therapist or whatever, that’s not a sign of weakness, not at all. And that’s what we’re afraid of. And then vulnerability. If you are going through something, or you have in the past gone through something, sharing that, sharing your struggle, your journey, how you came through it is one of the biggest tools I think you have. Especially I was going to say as a leader, but just as a human, if you can do that, that just, you don’t know who you’re going to help by being able to do that.So I think I was just going to say, I think you just wrapped it up great, and then I stole your thunder and threw some stuff on top of it, and I think you did do a great job of just explaining that—if there’s anything else you want to add, otherwise I’m going to go to a couple final questions.

No, I think, I mean, if you feel like I covered it pretty well, I trust you on that.

Yeah, no, that was awesome. That was awesome. I could talk with you all day about this, but I have hiking waiting for me to clear my mind in about, well, I got about an hour before I have to head to there.

So final question. So we talked about this. I think one of the biggest things with burnout in addition is we think that our work is our identity. And so we just concentrate everything on that. And it’s not. In my mind, our identity is our outside-of-work passions, what we like doing, what we’re not working. And so my question to you is what do you enjoy that isn’t work-related?

I love dancing. I do hip hop dancing and I do ballet barre, and I love them because it’s meditative. I don’t know. Some of the moves I’ll know, but I have to watch the leader. I’ve got to watch the teacher. So I don’t think in those moments, and I just get to watch and I don’t get to worry about anything or try to calculate or figure out or strategize anything. I am just moving and I love it. And I’m jumping and spinning and whatever, and it’s fun, it’s playful, it’s joyful. 

And then I love watching my boys play basketball when they have their games. I mean, they don’t play it year-round, but when they play, I just… they love it. I love it. And they have fun. I’m not one of those moms who’s like, “You have to be the best and you’ve got to make all the points.” Like, if you love it, I love it. And I love watching them and just spending time with them. I mean, they’re 10, and so in eight years, they’ll be 18 and I’m going to cry. So I try to really spend all my time really enjoying them and loving on them and just, you know, enjoying this life that we get to live because life is beautiful, right? And as long as we’re able to be present and fill ourselves with joy, I mean, there’s joy everywhere, all the time. It’s a matter of perspective, and it’s if we’re able to see it because we’re free from burnout and we’re experiencing it.

Yep, I agree. And we’re going to give kudos to Kristen Keats for trying to bring joy to accounting, because that’s her theme, and we’ve all said joy a few times, and I think that’s so important. Find the joy in anything you do, whether it’s work or outside of work as well. I preach that all the time. Find the joy with what you’re doing at work too and that’ll help too.

Well, one last question then. If anybody wants to find out more about your program and what you’re doing or just see what you’re doing in general, where’s a good place for them to look?

I do everything on LinkedIn. So that’s my platform. It’s easy. It’s a one-stop shop. So you can just Google my, or search my name. I’m the only one, Anna Lovell-Nesmith, and I’ll pop right up and you can see, I post on there frequently, and so oftentimes I offer advice or offer tools and they can message me or email me or book an appointment. And I offer free strategy calls, so they could, if they’re like, “I’m not sure if I’m going through burnout, but I don’t want to dish money out to something I’m not even sure about,” you don’t have to worry about that. The first call is always complimentary.

Alright. Well, awesome. Well, Anna, I loved the conversation. I enjoyed it. I don’t love the fact we have to have the conversation, but I love the fact that you’re out there helping and making a difference in people’s lives. So thank you for being on the show.

Thank you very much. I had a great time. Thank you.